Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Sorry you misunderstood. Better luck next time.

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Maybe you should look at the post post you quoted again. I added to it while you were responding... or should I say not responding.

My original question to you still stands:

I would like to see if you could please explain to me in as much detail as this medium will allow, and with factual data and not anecdotal evidence, that discrimination exists on a societal level.

Remember, were talking about discrimination, not racism.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

My original question to you still stands:

I would like to see if you could please explain to me in as much detail as this medium will allow, and with factual data and not anecdotal evidence, that discrimination exists on a societal level.

Remember, were talking about discrimination, not racism.

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The request is too broad. It depends on what kind of discrimination to which you refer. As I was referring to racism, in all of my posts herein, it should be obvious how racism exists on a societal level.

What kind of discrimination are you referring to, and how is it relevant to the topic?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

The request is too broad. It depends on what kind of discrimination to which you refer. As I was referring to racism, in all of my posts herein, it should be obvious how racism exists on a societal level.

What kind of discrimination are you referring to, and how is it relevant to the topic?

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Of course racism exists on a societal level. I've already agreed with you on that. I also said that racism comes in all colors and hews.

I want you to answer the question as you defined discrimination in post number 3 in this thread.

ecofarm said:

The reason some do not care about freedom from unjust discrimination is they're white and suffer no such threat on a societal level. The world ends at their nose.

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Now, can you please explain to me in as much detail as this medium will allow, and with factual data and not anecdotal evidence, that discrimination exists on a societal level.

Remember, again, were talking about discrimination (an act), not racism (a thought).

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

Of course racism exists on a societal level. I've already agreed with you on that. I also said that racism comes in all colors and hews.

I want you to answer the question as you defined discrimination in post number 3 in this thread.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/191803-which-more-important-right-discriminate-freedom-discrimination.html#post1063182741

Now, can you please explain to me in as much detail as this medium will allow, and with factual data and not anecdotal evidence, that discrimination exists on a societal level.

Remember, again, were talking about discrimination (an act), not racism (a thought).

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Discrimination exists on a societal level through the actions of real racists in the realm of business, courts and all other aspects of life.

When bigotry is employed by the majority in power, it permeates society and thus exists at the societal level.

Do you want examples of racists in action? Just consider the realms I noted.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Discrimination exists on a societal level through the actions of real racists in the realm of business, courts and all other aspects of life.

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In what way? How do businesses discriminate on a societal level? How do courts discriminate on a societal level? How do other aspects of life discriminate on a societal level?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

In what way? How do businesses discriminate on a societal level? How do courts discriminate on a societal level? How do other aspects of life discriminate on a societal level?

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Through the actions of racists. The courts, or businesses, are not racists in and of themselves - they're inanimate objects and are incapable of acts of will.

Why are you asking how inanimate objects can be racists.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Through the actions of racists.

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How? In what way? With what results?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

How? In what way? With what results?

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You don't understand how racists impact society?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

FederalRepublic said:

And if you aren't a member of a protected class?

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Then the discrimination is an individual discrimination, which is allowed, unless and until a pattern evolves and a new class in need of protection is identified.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

You don't understand how racists impact society?

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Of course I do. As I stated before, I seen it from multiple sides.

What I don't know, is what you meant by that damning and broad statement you made in post 3 as well as if you actually understand what you said.

So far, I've gotten deflection from discrimination to racism and now I'm getting circular arguments from you.

I really would like to hear your reasoning behind your statement. I don't want to argue and have done everything I can to prevent this from getting to that.

Can you please explain to me your thoughts and your reasoning behind your statement that discrimination is done on a societal level and if you can, I'll ask you about the white people comment, although I've intentionally steered away from that.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

Remember, again, were talking about discrimination (an act), not racism (a thought).

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I think I see your problem. You are defining racism in the simplest (too simple) possible terms. While I presume you are not a racist, this is a tactic used by racists. I'll try to spell it out:

1. Define racism as 'noticing race'.
2. Ignore the historical impacts of real racism that continue today.
3. Ignore the power dynamics of real racism.
4. Ignore the difference between institutionalized and individual bigotry.

You see, racists reduce the term to the lowest common denominator. They do this in order to ignore the issue.

Real racism is not just thought. Real racism is the systematic oppression of a race by the majority in power. Systematic, or institutional, oppression is the heart of real racism. Without such, bigotry is meaningless on a societal level. This is why blacks (in the US, for example) cannot be racist or ascribe to racism.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

I think I see your problem. You are defining racism in the simplest possible terms. While I presume you are not a racist, this is a tactic used by racists. I'll try to spell it out:

1. Define racism as 'noticing race'.
2. Ignore the historical impacts of real racism that continue today.
3. Ignore the power dynamics of real racism.
4. Ignore the difference between institutionalized and individual bigotry.

You see, racists reduce the term to the lowest common denominator. They do this in order to ignore the issue.

Real racism is not just thought. Real racism is the systematic oppression of a race by the majority in power. Systematic, or institutional, oppression is the heart of real racism. Without such, bigotry is meaningless on a societal level. This is why blacks cannot be racist or ascribe to racism.

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Not sure where you state that I define race as just noticing race. I gave you the Merriam Webster definition that I agree with.

Oppression can be a result of racist people or discriminatory laws, regulations, restrictions or practices. Oppression like discrimination can originate from many sources, racism being just one.

In this thread, we were discussing Discrimination as it relates to Freedom of Association. This could also be race based, but not exclusively.

You mentioned race in post three, specifically regarding white people in what could fit very easily in the definition of racism I posted from Merriam Webster. And then went on to say that discrimination is at a societal level.

I could agree that both racism and discrimination exist. In fact I have, numerous time in this very thread.

What I want and what I'm just trying to get you to explain, is your own statement that discrimination is done at a societal level.

Damn Eco, I can do it. It would have to be done using anecdotal evidence, but I can do it none the less. I want to see if you can without anecdotal evidence, circular arguments or falling back on racism which again is a thought, not an act.

We've all heard the calls of discrimination, racism, bigotry, etc. We've all heard how bad it is and some of is have lived with it either seeing it being acted upon against ourselves or others. I want to see you tell me exactly what you base your statement on?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

What I want and what I'm just trying to get you to explain, is your own statement that discrimination is done at a societal level.

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Racism, defined astutely, is when unjust discrimination is done against a race at the societal level. That is, throughout society. That's why only whites can be racist, because blacks are incapable of unjust discrimination at a societal level.

This is the part of racism that appears beyond your comprehension.

Racism is not just thought, it's the systematic oppression of a race. Referring to blacks as racists is -in fact- a false equivalence. Surely, you can see this. In the US, do you think a black person being a racial bigot carries the same societal impacts as a white being a racial bigot? No, because whites are the majority power and thereby are capable of actual, socially meaningful, racism.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Racism, defined astutely, is when unjust discrimination is done against a race at the societal level. That is, throughout society. That's why only whites can be racist, because blacks are incapable of unjust discrimination at a societal level.

This is the part of racism that appears beyond your comprehension.

Racism is not just thought, it's the systematic oppression of a race. Referring to blacks as racists is -in fact- a false equivalence. Surely, you can see this. In the US, do you think a black person being a racial bigot carries the same societal impacts as a white being a racial bigot? No, because whites are the majority power and thereby are capable of actual, socially meaningful, racism.

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y'know, I was raised by fakes. My parents were quick to harangue my grandmother about her blatant racism, but truth be told my parents never had friends other than white, their work environments were white, our schools were white. Turns out I'm a latina, but I didn't know that and it's not obvious and I didn't find out I was til I was in my 40s. Anyway.... I was a racist. I thought, well, crap, y'know no one is stopping them from succeeding, even in segregation, why didn't they just make their own successful communities... then while at mostly white Texas A&M, I worked for a home health supervisor and had to go into deep east Texas. Both were bizarrely eye opening experiences. At A&M, in 1976-1980, the only black students were military or athletes, there were no other black students to speak of. However, nearly everyone working the mess lines, janitors, maintenance, and yard folks were nearly all black. None of the businesses I'd worked at previously in B/CS had any black employees. But when in my last year I worked for the home health agency as a supervisor and had to travel to their world to supervise the care of the impoverished elderly, 99% black... it broke my heart. I started to understand what you're trying to present. Until you see and talk to... and I'm just careless enough as evidenced here to be kind of blunt when I ask questions, and the answers I got humbled me. Anyway, I don't think people really understand the different world that non-whites experience in the USA, perhaps other places, I can't say from experience, but certainly in the USA. Even here in LA I can really see and hear a difference in the way people my age discuss latinos and blacks. They're trying really hard not to be racist, but at the same time you can hear the superiority attitude in the way they try not to be racist, just like my parents, and me back then, I learned, they never have, and never will, I'm pretty sure.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Racism, defined astutely, is when unjust discrimination is done against a race at the societal level. That is, throughout society. That's why only whites can be racist, because blacks are incapable of unjust discrimination at a societal level.

This is the part of racism that appears beyond your comprehension.

Racism is not just thought, it's the systematic oppression of a race. Referring to blacks as racists is -in fact- a false equivalence. Surely, you can see this. In the US, do you think a black person being a racial bigot carries the same societal impacts as a white being a racial bigot? No, because whites are the majority power and thereby are capable of actual, socially meaningful, racism.

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That is not racism. Racism is a thought. The actions that spring from racism have other names.

The problem with this argument you're making is that is misrepresents what racism truly is; an evil that comes from inside a person. Discrimination, and other terms used in this thread are actions. Including bigotry and oppression, which is what you wrongly define as racism above.

You really need to get your terminology correct.

Words matter.

Discrimination is not done on a societal level in the US. Unless you can show me otherwise, using correct terminology, than that fact stands.

This all started because you stated that white people discriminate and deny it because they're white and by being white have no idea what discrimination really is. You even stated what could be read as probably one of the most unfortunate statements I've read on this board when I said that racism exists and comes in all colors and hews:

ecofarm said:

No, there are not. Racism, in its full meaning to include scope, power dynamics and historical impacts, can only exist among the majority power. Bigotry by minorities is meaningless at a societal level and thereby does not qualify as racism, as there is no opportunity for systematic oppression.

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When you say majority, as you have multiple times to me to describe racism, is that another word for whites? Just wondering. I don't want to use incorrect terminology either.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

Racism is a thought.

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As long as you ascribe to this moronic definition of racism, you will never understand it sociologically.

This all started because you stated that white people discriminate and deny it because they're white and by being white have no idea what discrimination really is.

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That's not what I stated. I stated that some whites are unwilling to or incapable of understanding racism from a sociological standpoint. Because of this, they are incapable of understanding how and why racial bigotry by whites is different than racial bigotry by minorities. In this difference, we (those of us capable of sociological understanding) can see that calling a white and a black a racist is a false equivalent.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Racism, defined astutely, is when unjust discrimination is done against a race at the societal level. That is, throughout society. That's why only whites can be racist, because blacks are incapable of unjust discrimination at a societal level.

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That's interesting. Apparently society now has a single corporate decision-making capability with regards to intent.

So, therefore, hate crime is impossible. Because individuals can't be racist. Only a society can.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

cpwill said:

That's interesting. Apparently society now has a single corporate decision-making capability with regards to intent.

So, therefore, hate crime is impossible. Because individuals can't be racist. Only a society can.

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The collective acts of actual (majority power) racists permeates society.

Individual whites can be racist, because they have the power to institute the systematic oppression of another race, which is what racism really is.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

As long as you ascribe to this moronic definition of racism, you will never understand it sociologically.

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Racism is thought. When people act upon their racist thoughts it changes to another form as an action with another term describing it. Discrimination, subjugation, oppression, segregation, and so on.

You have a good argument to make, you just have a hard time making it. But people that disagree with you (which I find hilarious that you think I am one of them) will not take you seriously if you do not use the correct terminology and do not stop lumping everything under the term racism.

I disagree that Discrimination is societal. I do agree that racism is societal. I disagree that blacks and other minorities can not be racists.

You've lumped too many things under the banner of racism. Racism is the catalyst for many of the actions you describe, but those actions are not racism. They can be racist in origin but racism is a thought. When acted upon it becomes something else all together.

Would you call slavery racism? Or would call slavery, slavery?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

Racism is thought.

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No matter how many times you repeat this, it's not true. Racism is the systematic oppression of a race, and only the majority power is capable of this.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

No matter how many times you repeat this, it's not true. Racism is the systematic oppression of a race, and only the majority power is capable of this.

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It is not. Oppression is oppression, and it can be caused by may factors. Racism being just one. Oppression grown from racist people is racist oppression, but it isn't racism.

You have to understand this. I don't know who you've been listening to, but they are doing you a disservice.

Using the term racism to describe actions lessons the impact that the term actually has. Racism is a cancer on society. To dilute it by ascribing it as an action, when it is actually worse only dilutes and debases the term.

A person that has racist thoughts is a racist.

An action taken by that person because of the racism is another thing all together.

You can add the term rasist in front of the other terms if you like, to differentiate them from toher forms of the same term, but they are not racism as defined by that single term.

For instance, discrimination can be done for many reasons; sex discrimination, religious discrimination and so on. To use the term more accurately when describing discrimination due to racism, you can use the term "racist discrimination" or "race discrimination." But it is not racism.

Racism is the root. The thought. The feeling. The underlying cause, but it is not an act. It can be the foundation for an action, or the reason for an action, but it is not the action itself.

That's like saying that all sex is love.

Some sex is done for purely carnal reasons. Some sex is done for love. But sex being the act is not love which is the thought or feeling.

The opposite of love is hate. One form of hate is racism. All are thought or feelings. Any actions that result from love or hate or racism are described using different words.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

It is not.

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Some sociologists have defined racism as a system of group privilege. In Portraits of White Racism, David Wellman has defined racism as "culturally sanctioned beliefs, which, regardless of intentions involved, defend the advantages whites have because of the subordinated position of racial minorities".[31]

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Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A system is not merely thought.

In defining racism as merely individual thought, racists strip the word of meaning and falsely equivocate their actions with meaningless bigotry by a minority. The intents of this moronically simple definition are several:

1. To ignore the history of actual racism and its impacts today.
2. To ignore the power dynamics of actual racism.
3. To draw a false equivalence between their actual racism and socially meaningless bigotry.
4. To deny the systematic oppression of blacks.

I don't know who you've been listening to, but they are doing you a disservice.

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My entire sociology department agrees with me. Ignorance of sociological factors and impacts, and the intent of racists to ignore these factors, is doing you a disservice.

I'm sorry you disagree with every sociology department in the country and every educated person regarding this. You need to educate yourself and stop discussing racism in terms drawn by racists.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:

One person's statement against another isn't proof. Statements by multiple people that corroborate each other's claims IS proof.

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Even if they could prove that they were refused service, how would they prove that it was racially motivated?

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:

Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A system is not merely thought.

In defining racism as merely individual thought, racists strip the word of meaning and falsely equivocate their actions with meaningless bigotry by a minority. The intents of this moronically simple definition are several:

1. To ignore the history of actual racism and its impacts today.
2. To ignore the power dynamics of actual racism.
3. To draw a false equivalence between their actual racism and socially meaningless bigotry.
4. To deny the systematic oppression of blacks.




My entire sociology department agrees with me. Ignorance of sociological factors and impacts, and the intent of racists to ignore these factors, is doing you a disservice.

I'm sorry you disagree with every sociology department in the country and every educated person regarding this. You need to educate yourself and stop discussing racism in terms drawn by racists.

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I'm not ignorant of anything. And if you'd take off your blinder for a minute you find out I'm on your side and trying to teach you something.

A thought is not just some thing that someone has pop in their head. A thought can be a belief, an ideology, a cultural norm or many other things. I hope you understand that.

Racial discrimination is discrimination, and its done because of racist thought. Again, thought is not just something that pops into someones head - see above.

Actions are just that, actions.

I enjoyed reading your link, but what some sociologists want redefine the term to be doesn't make it so.

To help define a word and whether it is a verb or noun, try and use it in a sentence.

I will racism against you; I will commit racist against you; I will commit racial against you.

See? All nouns or pronouns. They don't fit. However, if we add a verb then the sentences work.

I will discriminate and oppress you because of my racism; I will commit racist discrimination against you; I will commit racial oppression against you.

Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Beaudreaux said:

I'm not ignorant of anything. And if you'd take off your blinder for a minute you find out I'm on your side and trying to teach you something.

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You're ignorant of the sociological definition of racism used by sociology departments across the country. While you take your definition from Websters, I take mine from grad school.

One would think you'd be capable of understanding that extremely simple dictionary definitions are often lacking.

Racism, by the sociological definition, is action and not just thought. This encompasses important aspects of actual racism and facilitates a higher understanding of it.

I am not going to dumb-down my understanding to facilitate your over-simplification.

Take your Websters to any sociology department and they will laugh you out.