• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

  • Total voters
    93
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Henrin said:
By idiots that don't understand the core principles of libertarianism perhaps.
Click to expand...

If those "core principles" allow the "freedom to discriminate", then the label of "tolerates racists" is well-earned.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

tres borrachos said:
You should be able to decline work regardless of the reason. Just because you have a business doesn't mean you are obligated to engage in commerce with whoever wants to do business with you.

If I own a professional cleaning service, and someone tries to hire me to clean a slaughterhouse, I wouldn't take the job, nor should I be forced to.

I agree people shouldn't be discriminated against, but I also disagree with the concept that you HAVE to accept an offer of commerce with someone because it may offend the other person. Once that becomes the rule, talk about a slippery slope.....
Click to expand...

One must be capable of discerning just (legal) discrimination and that which is not.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ttwtt78640 said:
I disagree. If my business is retail selling (at a fixed location) then, while I may limit quantities so as not to run out of goods, I may not refuse to sell an item to one person in favor of another. Your example, as was mine, was refusing a type of work (or an unsafe worksite) but not refusing service based on the customer's race, gender, ethnicity or religion.
Click to expand...

See my post to Maggie below. What would stop the owner from saying I refused to clean his slaughterhouse because he's black and not because I don't want to do it.

I can't support the concept of having to enter into commerce with everyone because some people are racist. That to me is turning commerce upside down to protect a few and because of the actions of a few.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:
One must be capable of discerning just (legal) discrimination and that which is not.
Click to expand...

How does one prove that in a court of law?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

tres borrachos said:
But what if the slaughterhouse owner was black, Maggie. If I as a white woman said "no thanks", what's to stop someone from assuming I'm a raicst? That is the slippery slope too.
Click to expand...

It's not a slippery slope.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

tres borrachos said:
How does one prove that in a court of law?
Click to expand...

One needn't prove innocence, as proving a negative is impossible. Someone would need, rather, to prove one had acted illegally.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

MaggieD said:
Well, hopefully, others understood my post. I think it applies just fine. You want to argue whether or not it's a rights violation to have to license your business? And whether or not laws can be enforced inside a licensed business that's so-licensed in violation (you think) of your rights? Start a thread.
Click to expand...

I don't need to start a new thread if my point pertains to your argument. :shrug:
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

tres borrachos said:
But what if the slaughterhouse owner was black, Maggie. If I as a white woman said "no thanks", what's to stop someone from assuming I'm a raicst? That is the slippery slope too.
Click to expand...

The burden of proof's on the accuser, not the accused. The more salient point is, should you legally be allowed to tell someone you won't do business with them (in your open-to-the-public business) because they're black? Because if it's legal, then it becomes enforceable by law...at which point we have government-enforced racism.

We've already been down that slippery slope...and that's where most of mankind stayed for most of recorded history. It's only within the past couple hundred years or so that the developed world began moving away from slavery.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:
It's not a slippery slope.
Click to expand...

But it is to me.

I could say I'm declining the job because I don't believe in slaughterhouses. But it could be because I don't want to work with a black person. How would you know either way?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

tres borrachos said:
See my post to Maggie below. What would stop the owner from saying I refused to clean his slaughterhouse because he's black and not because I don't want to do it.
Click to expand...

The fact that he'd have to prove you discriminated based on race and when your defense introduced the fact that he owns a slaughterhouse, and your business does not do slaughterhouses for anyone, he'd have to pay your attorney.


I can't support the concept of having to enter into commerce with everyone because some people are racist. That to me is turning commerce upside down to protect a few and because of the actions of a few.
Click to expand...

No, you're turning the court system upside down to object to rational policy.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

I wouldn't have been educated, I wouldn't have been able to have competitive employment opportunities, and should the first two have occurred I may have even been denied housing.

When I know that was a reality not long ago (and still is an issue now), libertarians can stuff it with their "rights."
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
If those "core principles" allow the "freedom to discriminate", then the label of "tolerates racists" is well-earned.
Click to expand...

Name me a right that isn't dependent on discrimination. Have fun with that.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

tres borrachos said:
But it is to me.
Click to expand...

That's only because you seem to think that one need prove innocence in court. As if business owners were being required to prove a negative or lose.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Fiddytree said:
I wouldn't have been educated, I wouldn't have been able to have competitive employment opportunities, and should the first two have occurred I may have even been denied housing.

When I know that was a reality not long ago (and still is an issue now), libertarians can stuff it with their "rights."
Click to expand...

So if all of that came true, which one of your rights would have been violated?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
Well said. And the fact that many libertarians think as your fellow libertarians do is one reason why libertarianism sometimes gets the "tolerates racism" label.
Click to expand...
what is really pathetic is many lefties claiming you must be a "racist" if you support the right of a business to discriminate for whatever reason it wants

libertarians get tarred that way because many lefties have no concept or value of individual rights that are contrary to their own concept of "rights" which normally are a claim against someone else's liberty or property
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

tres borrachos said:
But it is to me.

I could say I'm declining the job because I don't believe in slaughterhouses. But it could be because I don't want to work with a black person. How would you know either way?
Click to expand...

Again, the burden of proof is on the accuser.

Thing is, should we give the stamp of legitimacy to discrimination? Or should we give the stamp of legitimacy to freedom from discrimination?

Remember, men's-only voting had the stamp of legitimacy for almost half of America's history so far. Once women's suffrage was given the stamp of legitimacy, a lot of people (almost all men) didn't like it...but look how that particular stamp of legitimacy has changed our society. How many out there would even think of restricting a woman's right to vote?

So it goes with laws either allowing or disallowing discrimination. The longer the laws are on the books, the more the society adapts to and accepts those laws...and they become a part of the social fabric.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Henrin said:
Name me a right that isn't dependent on discrimination. Have fun with that.
Click to expand...

Have fun with what, the inability to differentiate between just and unjust discrimination? That intellectual fail got boring a while ago.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Fiddytree said:
I wouldn't have been educated, I wouldn't have been able to have competitive employment opportunities, and should the first two have occurred I may have even been denied housing.

When I know that was a reality not long ago (and still is an issue now), libertarians can stuff it with their "rights."
Click to expand...

Well said!
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:
The fact that he'd have to prove you discriminated based on race and when your defense introduced the fact that he owns a slaughterhouse, and your business does not do slaughterhouses for anyone, he'd have to pay your attorney.




No, you're turning the court system upside down to object to rational policy.
Click to expand...

What if I did other slaughterhouses, and decided I didn't want to do them anymore? And the first time I decided it the owner happened to be black.

I'm not saying I'm right, ecofarm. I'm saying it's something I consider when considering everything that pertains to commerce.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ecofarm said:
Have fun with what, the inability to differentiate between just and unjust discrimination? That intellectual fail got boring a while ago.
Click to expand...

The best part about you positive right people is that you know deep down your arguments are bull****.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Henrin said:
So if all of that came true, which one of your rights would have been violated?
Click to expand...

Due process, Equal protection.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
But really I don't think that's racism per se. You're making your decision based on what you believe to be the relative safety of an area where you're working.

My question is more about whether the right to discriminate due to race/ethnicity/religion/sexual orientation is more important than the freedom from such discrimination.
Click to expand...

I voted that freedom from discrimination is more important but that does not mean that no discrimination (selectivity) may be done. The problem with many anti-discrimination laws is that they assume that if service was denied to a "protected class" member that it was because the person was a member of that class. I should be free to refuse service to anyone and not have to prove my innocence - the complete burden of proof should lie with the one alleging discrimination.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Freedom of association is very important. I definitely feel that discrimination in hiring should be illegal, but if someone is stupid enough to turn away paying customers, I'm not so sure that that should be illegal.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Fiddytree said:
Due process, Equal protection.
Click to expand...

That would only apply to government discrimination. Since libertarians don't support public education I thought it would have been obvious I was referring to private discrimination.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Glen Contrarian said:
The burden of proof's on the accuser, not the accused. The more salient point is, should you legally be allowed to tell someone you won't do business with them (in your open-to-the-public business) because they're black? Because if it's legal, then it becomes enforceable by law...at which point we have government-enforced racism.

We've already been down that slippery slope...and that's where most of mankind stayed for most of recorded history. It's only within the past couple hundred years or so that the developed world began moving away from slavery.
Click to expand...

I'm not an "it's all or nothing" girl. I think that makes it too broad. And the answer to the question "should you legally be allowed to tell someone you won't do business with them (in your open-to-the-public business) because they're black", the answer is "absolutely not". But at the same time, I can't agree with forcing people to enter into commerce with everyone whether they want to or not, just to prevent that from happening.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom