View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

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  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
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Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #61
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Most of us are not in a position to 'allow' what others do. I choose a government that has less power rather than more. if one of the distasteful byproducts of limiting the power of government is that some private businesses engage in silly discrimination, that is still better than giving government the power to "stop" such activities. and in a competitive environment-making unsound business decisions will cost the decision maker
    The government condones discrimination all the time. It's the type and level that forms the measure of what is acceptable, and what is not. And I suppose that is as it should be.

    I think it foolish and an abomination to discriminate against someone based on their skin color, cultural heritage, etc..

    However, the trend seems to be to erase all form of "discrimination" no matter the impact or purpose.

    If the government becomes the only arbiter of what is and isn't, I fear a day when such power can become a method to eliminate, as opposed to protect.

  2. #62
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The threat to society of a wrongful claim does not negate the need for legislation.
    In my opinion, there does not need to be legislation requiring every business owner to have to engage in commerce with every person who wants to engage in commerce with said business owner, because many if not most of the time, the reasons aren't based in an -ism (sexism, racism, etc.).

    I have a friend who owns a hair salon. A few months ago, a man came in for a haircut. This man had also raped my friend's sister back in the 1980s. He did his time and was released, but she for obvious reasons did not want to touch him. She refused to serve him and refused to allow any of her staff to serve him. If a law was in place that made it a requirement to serve everyone who walked into her place of business, she would have broken the law. You may not find that problematic. I do.

    Is that an extreme example? Yes it is. But it's a real one. And that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

  3. #63
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The state believes the defense unless there is convincing evidence. You have some idea of how the court system works, right? Pretending to have no idea how courts work is not a defense for crying 'sky falling'.
    Indeed, I do. That is the problem - one must often suffer arrest, post bond and then appear in court to be heard. That is quite a high price to be paid by those presumed to be innocent.
    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  4. #64
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Really it is more like black people stopping in for a soda at the Woolworths and not being able to get one. Not my idea of America.
    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    In my opinion, there does not need to be legislation requiring every business owner to have to engage in commerce with every person who wants to engage in commerce with said business owner, because many if not most of the time, the reasons aren't based in an -ism (sexism, racism, etc.).

    I have a friend who owns a hair salon. A few months ago, a man came in for a haircut. This man had also raped my friend's sister back in the 1980s. He did his time and was released, but she for obvious reasons did not want to touch him. She refused to serve him and refused to allow any of her staff to serve him. If a law was in place that made it a requirement to serve everyone who walked into her place of business, she would have broken the law. You may not find that problematic. I do.

    Is that an extreme example? Yes it is. But it's a real one. And that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
    God Bless the Marine Corps.

  5. #65
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    If you are open to the public, sure, you can deny someone if you can reasonably show why that person was not someone with which you should do business i.e. they don't have money, they have a history of fraud, you have a not-so-nice personal history with that person, and so forth. You're refusing service on the basis of what that person has done or has failed to do. Of course you have the right to refuse service in occasions like that!

    But refusing to do business due to race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation...that's more what my question is about.
    And if you are a white woman who refuses to serve a black person you have a not-so-nice history with, and there was a law that said you have to serve everyone, you could bogged down in paperwork and litigation for years because that black person says it's because you're a racist. Your name could appear in a paper. Your business could be in ruins before you are ever convicted of a crime.

    You don't ever have to serve someone without money, so that really isn't a relevant example. And if someone has a history of fraud, and that person served his time somewhere, you also don't have a right to refuse to serve that person "just because" you don't want to if there is a law in place saying you have to. In our society, we don't force people to be punished for the rest of their lives because of fraud. You don't have to hire that person, but you can't shun that person if the law says you can't shun that person.

  6. #66
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    In my opinion, there does not need to be legislation requiring every business owner to have to engage in commerce with every person who wants to engage in commerce with said business owner, because many if not most of the time, the reasons aren't based in an -ism (sexism, racism, etc.).

    I have a friend who owns a hair salon. A few months ago, a man came in for a haircut. This man had also raped my friend's sister back in the 1980s. He did his time and was released, but she for obvious reasons did not want to touch him. She refused to serve him and refused to allow any of her staff to serve him. If a law was in place that made it a requirement to serve everyone who walked into her place of business, she would have broken the law. You may not find that problematic. I do.

    Is that an extreme example? Yes it is. But it's a real one. And that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
    But isn't that what I pointed out? She refused NOT because of that person's race/religion/ethnicity/sexual orientation...but because of what someone did or failed to do. And it's as MLK said - we want to be judged not by the color of the skin, but by the content of the character. It's a very, very bad idea to allow people to discriminate due to a person's condition at birth instead of by what that person has or has not done.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #67
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    And if you are a white woman who refuses to serve a black person you have a not-so-nice history with, and there was a law that said you have to serve everyone, you could bogged down in paperwork and litigation for years because that black person says it's because you're a racist. Your name could appear in a paper. Your business could be in ruins before you are ever convicted of a crime.

    You don't ever have to serve someone without money, so that really isn't a relevant example. And if someone has a history of fraud, and that person served his time somewhere, you also don't have a right to refuse to serve that person "just because" you don't want to if there is a law in place saying you have to. In our society, we don't force people to be punished for the rest of their lives because of fraud. You don't have to hire that person, but you can't shun that person if the law says you can't shun that person.
    My reply #66 applies.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  8. #68
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    But isn't that what I pointed out? She refused NOT because of that person's race/religion/ethnicity/sexual orientation...but because of what someone did or failed to do. And it's as MLK said - we want to be judged not by the color of the skin, but by the content of the character. It's a very, very bad idea to allow people to discriminate due to a person's condition at birth instead of by what that person has or has not done.
    If a law is in place that says you have to engage in business with everyone then the law would be applied to her.

  9. #69
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Again, the burden of proof is on the accuser.
    What if a restaurant or motel refused to accommodate a customer purely because of their race? Aside from a confession, how could you prove that it was racially motivated?
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  10. #70
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    In my opinion, there does not need to be legislation requiring every business owner to have to engage in commerce with every person who wants to engage in commerce with said business owner, because many if not most of the time, the reasons aren't based in an -ism (sexism, racism, etc.).

    I have a friend who owns a hair salon. A few months ago, a man came in for a haircut. This man had also raped my friend's sister back in the 1980s. He did his time and was released, but she for obvious reasons did not want to touch him. She refused to serve him and refused to allow any of her staff to serve him. If a law was in place that made it a requirement to serve everyone who walked into her place of business, she would have broken the law. You may not find that problematic. I do.

    Is that an extreme example? Yes it is. But it's a real one. And that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.
    You continue to ignore the difference between legal and illegal discrimination. No court would ever begrudge a business the right to not serve someone who raped an employee or an employee's family member.

    It's a stupid example, because there is no chance of prosecution.

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