View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

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  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
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Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #511
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    Beaudreaux's Avatar
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    I'm trying to understand why you feel that certain individuals in society are ethically justified in violating the person or property of a person in order to coerce him into doing business with someone he doesn't want to.

    So why are these the only two actions you feel you have a right to take? Why do you not feel you have the right to violate his body or property in order to coerce him into doing business with redheads?
    Your not making sense. I explained in what I thought were very clear terms my feelings, and the law, in the previous post.

    And I'm not sure I feel comfortable with your accusatory language as it appears you are inferring that I personally have infringed on someone's rights.
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

  2. #512
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    So let's get rid of all laws.
    YES!! A man after my own heart. Of course I had to duck the facetious geese.

  3. #513
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Your not making sense. I explained in what I thought were very clear terms my feelings, and the law, in the previous post.

    And I'm not sure I feel comfortable with your accusatory language as it appears you are inferring that I personally have infringed on someone's rights.
    No I'm not accusing you personally of doing so. You have clearly stated that you would feel justified only in either patronizing or boycotting the bigoted shopkeeper, not in violating his body or property in order to coerce some desired behavior.

    So my question is: Why? Why do you feel you don't have the right to violate his body or property in order to coerce him into doing business with redheads?

  4. #514
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    It isn't? In that case, I'll have the keys to your car, please...and your house, for that matter.
    It's been said various times that no one is taking anything. The scenario is a merchant is selling something but wants to withhold it from someone he views as less than himself due to prejudices/discrimination. That is control.

  5. #515
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No I'm not accusing you personally of doing so. You have clearly stated that you would feel justified only in either patronizing or boycotting the bigoted shopkeeper, not in violating his body or property in order to coerce some desired behavior.

    So my question is: Why? Why do you feel you don't have the right to violate his body or property in order to coerce him into doing business with redheads?
    Okay, I'll play along for just a bit more.

    First, redheads are not a protected class in our laws, but let's pretend they are for your scenario. The protected classes are:

    Race Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Color Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Religion Civil Rights Act of 1964
    National origin Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Age (40 and over) Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
    Sex Equal Pay Act of 1963 and Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Pregnancy Pregnancy Discrimination Act
    Citizenship Immigration Reform and Control Act
    Familial status Civil Rights Act of 1968 Title VIII: Housing cannot discriminate for having children, with an exception for senior housing
    Disability status Vocational Rehabilitation and Other Rehabilitation Services of 1973 and Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
    Veteran status Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 and Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act
    Genetic information Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act

    As an individual, I do not have the authority to force anyone to do or not do anything, other than to prevent them from harming me physically or threatening my life or property. No individual does.

    As to the government however, we as a people have established guidelines to conduct ourselves. These guidelines include prohibitions against discrimination of the certain protected classes, in certain public interactions.

    These prohibitions do not restrict private association or non-association. They only affect public association of groups or entities.

    For instance, a business is a separate entity, that is granted a license to enter into commerce. Our Constitution grants Congress the right to regulate Commerce in the Commerce Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3). Each state also has the power to regulate commerce as well within its borders. As do local municipalities.

    Each municipality, state, as well as the Congress, has sets of laws, regulations, statutes, ordinances and rules such as zoning that regulate commerce.

    This has been the way our government and our society has operated since day one.

    Does this clarify my position better?
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

  6. #516
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Okay, I'll play along for just a bit more.

    First, redheads are not a protected class in our laws, but let's pretend they are for your scenario. The protected classes are:

    Race Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Color Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Religion Civil Rights Act of 1964
    National origin Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Age (40 and over) Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
    Sex Equal Pay Act of 1963 and Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Pregnancy Pregnancy Discrimination Act
    Citizenship Immigration Reform and Control Act
    Familial status Civil Rights Act of 1968 Title VIII: Housing cannot discriminate for having children, with an exception for senior housing
    Disability status Vocational Rehabilitation and Other Rehabilitation Services of 1973 and Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
    Veteran status Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 and Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act
    Genetic information Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act

    As an individual, I do not have the authority to force anyone to do or not do anything, other than to prevent them from harming me physically or threatening my life or property. No individual does.

    As to the government however, we as a people have established guidelines to conduct ourselves. These guidelines include prohibitions against discrimination of the certain protected classes, in certain public interactions.

    These prohibitions do not restrict private association or non-association. They only affect public association of groups or entities.

    For instance, a business is a separate entity, that is granted a license to enter into commerce. Our Constitution grants Congress the right to regulate Commerce in the Commerce Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3). Each state also has the power to regulate commerce as well within its borders. As do local municipalities.

    Each municipality, state, as well as the Congress, has sets of laws, regulations, statutes, ordinances and rules such as zoning that regulate commerce.

    This has been the way our government and our society has operated since day one.

    Does this clarify my position better?
    I agree with your first statement 100%, that none of us has the right to force anyone to not do anything, other than to prevent them from harming us physically or threatening our lives or property.

    But here's the jump or leap I don't follow. If, as you say, no person has such a right, how can a bigot's body or property be justly violated by any person in order to coerce that bigot to change his behavior? There is no person on Earth who has the right to initiate such a violation.

  7. #517
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Okay, I'll play along for just a bit more.

    First, redheads are not a protected class in our laws, but let's pretend they are for your scenario. The protected classes are:

    Race – Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Color – Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Religion – Civil Rights Act of 1964
    National origin – Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Age (40 and over) – Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967
    Sex – Equal Pay Act of 1963 and Civil Rights Act of 1964
    Pregnancy – Pregnancy Discrimination Act
    Citizenship – Immigration Reform and Control Act
    Familial status – Civil Rights Act of 1968 Title VIII: Housing cannot discriminate for having children, with an exception for senior housing
    Disability status – Vocational Rehabilitation and Other Rehabilitation Services of 1973 and Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990
    Veteran status – Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act of 1974 and Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act
    Genetic information – Genetic Information Nondiscrimination Act

    As an individual, I do not have the authority to force anyone to do or not do anything, other than to prevent them from harming me physically or threatening my life or property. No individual does.

    As to the government however, we as a people have established guidelines to conduct ourselves. These guidelines include prohibitions against discrimination of the certain protected classes, in certain public interactions.

    These prohibitions do not restrict private association or non-association. They only affect public association of groups or entities.

    For instance, a business is a separate entity, that is granted a license to enter into commerce. Our Constitution grants Congress the right to regulate Commerce in the Commerce Clause (Article I, Section 8, Clause 3). Each state also has the power to regulate commerce as well within its borders. As do local municipalities.

    Each municipality, state, as well as the Congress, has sets of laws, regulations, statutes, ordinances and rules such as zoning that regulate commerce.

    This has been the way our government and our society has operated since day one.

    Does this clarify my position better?
    I will rep, copy and paste your post everytime some asks why?

    awesome post.


  8. #518
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Wording it as "freedom from" is misleading. It should be "security against".

    Limiting others is never freedom. Therefore, the OP and the poll is major flawed.

  9. #519
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    I agree with your first statement 100%, that none of us has the right to force anyone to not do anything, other than to prevent them from harming us physically or threatening our lives or property.

    But here's the jump or leap I don't follow. If, as you say, no person has such a right, how can a bigot's body or property be justly violated by any person in order to coerce that bigot to change his behavior? There is no person on Earth who has the right to initiate such a violation.
    There is none. No right by which any individual may do so. I've stated that. Not even the government will attempt to change anyone's behavior.
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

  10. #520
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by 1750Texan View Post
    I will rep, copy and paste your post everytime some asks why?

    awesome post.
    Thanks. Copy away.
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

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