View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

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  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
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Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #461
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Remember, again, were talking about discrimination (an act), not racism (a thought).
    I think I see your problem. You are defining racism in the simplest (too simple) possible terms. While I presume you are not a racist, this is a tactic used by racists. I'll try to spell it out:

    1. Define racism as 'noticing race'.
    2. Ignore the historical impacts of real racism that continue today.
    3. Ignore the power dynamics of real racism.
    4. Ignore the difference between institutionalized and individual bigotry.

    You see, racists reduce the term to the lowest common denominator. They do this in order to ignore the issue.

    Real racism is not just thought. Real racism is the systematic oppression of a race by the majority in power. Systematic, or institutional, oppression is the heart of real racism. Without such, bigotry is meaningless on a societal level. This is why blacks (in the US, for example) cannot be racist or ascribe to racism.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 04-23-14 at 04:15 AM.

  2. #462
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I think I see your problem. You are defining racism in the simplest possible terms. While I presume you are not a racist, this is a tactic used by racists. I'll try to spell it out:

    1. Define racism as 'noticing race'.
    2. Ignore the historical impacts of real racism that continue today.
    3. Ignore the power dynamics of real racism.
    4. Ignore the difference between institutionalized and individual bigotry.

    You see, racists reduce the term to the lowest common denominator. They do this in order to ignore the issue.

    Real racism is not just thought. Real racism is the systematic oppression of a race by the majority in power. Systematic, or institutional, oppression is the heart of real racism. Without such, bigotry is meaningless on a societal level. This is why blacks cannot be racist or ascribe to racism.
    Not sure where you state that I define race as just noticing race. I gave you the Merriam Webster definition that I agree with.

    Oppression can be a result of racist people or discriminatory laws, regulations, restrictions or practices. Oppression like discrimination can originate from many sources, racism being just one.

    In this thread, we were discussing Discrimination as it relates to Freedom of Association. This could also be race based, but not exclusively.

    You mentioned race in post three, specifically regarding white people in what could fit very easily in the definition of racism I posted from Merriam Webster. And then went on to say that discrimination is at a societal level.

    I could agree that both racism and discrimination exist. In fact I have, numerous time in this very thread.

    What I want and what I'm just trying to get you to explain, is your own statement that discrimination is done at a societal level.

    Damn Eco, I can do it. It would have to be done using anecdotal evidence, but I can do it none the less. I want to see if you can without anecdotal evidence, circular arguments or falling back on racism which again is a thought, not an act.

    We've all heard the calls of discrimination, racism, bigotry, etc. We've all heard how bad it is and some of is have lived with it either seeing it being acted upon against ourselves or others. I want to see you tell me exactly what you base your statement on?
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

  3. #463
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    What I want and what I'm just trying to get you to explain, is your own statement that discrimination is done at a societal level.
    Racism, defined astutely, is when unjust discrimination is done against a race at the societal level. That is, throughout society. That's why only whites can be racist, because blacks are incapable of unjust discrimination at a societal level.

    This is the part of racism that appears beyond your comprehension.

    Racism is not just thought, it's the systematic oppression of a race. Referring to blacks as racists is -in fact- a false equivalence. Surely, you can see this. In the US, do you think a black person being a racial bigot carries the same societal impacts as a white being a racial bigot? No, because whites are the majority power and thereby are capable of actual, socially meaningful, racism.

  4. #464
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Racism, defined astutely, is when unjust discrimination is done against a race at the societal level. That is, throughout society. That's why only whites can be racist, because blacks are incapable of unjust discrimination at a societal level.

    This is the part of racism that appears beyond your comprehension.

    Racism is not just thought, it's the systematic oppression of a race. Referring to blacks as racists is -in fact- a false equivalence. Surely, you can see this. In the US, do you think a black person being a racial bigot carries the same societal impacts as a white being a racial bigot? No, because whites are the majority power and thereby are capable of actual, socially meaningful, racism.
    y'know, I was raised by fakes. My parents were quick to harangue my grandmother about her blatant racism, but truth be told my parents never had friends other than white, their work environments were white, our schools were white. Turns out I'm a latina, but I didn't know that and it's not obvious and I didn't find out I was til I was in my 40s. Anyway.... I was a racist. I thought, well, crap, y'know no one is stopping them from succeeding, even in segregation, why didn't they just make their own successful communities... then while at mostly white Texas A&M, I worked for a home health supervisor and had to go into deep east Texas. Both were bizarrely eye opening experiences. At A&M, in 1976-1980, the only black students were military or athletes, there were no other black students to speak of. However, nearly everyone working the mess lines, janitors, maintenance, and yard folks were nearly all black. None of the businesses I'd worked at previously in B/CS had any black employees. But when in my last year I worked for the home health agency as a supervisor and had to travel to their world to supervise the care of the impoverished elderly, 99% black... it broke my heart. I started to understand what you're trying to present. Until you see and talk to... and I'm just careless enough as evidenced here to be kind of blunt when I ask questions, and the answers I got humbled me. Anyway, I don't think people really understand the different world that non-whites experience in the USA, perhaps other places, I can't say from experience, but certainly in the USA. Even here in LA I can really see and hear a difference in the way people my age discuss latinos and blacks. They're trying really hard not to be racist, but at the same time you can hear the superiority attitude in the way they try not to be racist, just like my parents, and me back then, I learned, they never have, and never will, I'm pretty sure.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

  5. #465
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Racism, defined astutely, is when unjust discrimination is done against a race at the societal level. That is, throughout society. That's why only whites can be racist, because blacks are incapable of unjust discrimination at a societal level.

    This is the part of racism that appears beyond your comprehension.

    Racism is not just thought, it's the systematic oppression of a race. Referring to blacks as racists is -in fact- a false equivalence. Surely, you can see this. In the US, do you think a black person being a racial bigot carries the same societal impacts as a white being a racial bigot? No, because whites are the majority power and thereby are capable of actual, socially meaningful, racism.
    That is not racism. Racism is a thought. The actions that spring from racism have other names.

    The problem with this argument you're making is that is misrepresents what racism truly is; an evil that comes from inside a person. Discrimination, and other terms used in this thread are actions. Including bigotry and oppression, which is what you wrongly define as racism above.

    You really need to get your terminology correct.

    Words matter.

    Discrimination is not done on a societal level in the US. Unless you can show me otherwise, using correct terminology, than that fact stands.

    This all started because you stated that white people discriminate and deny it because they're white and by being white have no idea what discrimination really is. You even stated what could be read as probably one of the most unfortunate statements I've read on this board when I said that racism exists and comes in all colors and hews:
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    No, there are not. Racism, in its full meaning to include scope, power dynamics and historical impacts, can only exist among the majority power. Bigotry by minorities is meaningless at a societal level and thereby does not qualify as racism, as there is no opportunity for systematic oppression.
    When you say majority, as you have multiple times to me to describe racism, is that another word for whites? Just wondering. I don't want to use incorrect terminology either.
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

  6. #466
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Racism is a thought.
    As long as you ascribe to this moronic definition of racism, you will never understand it sociologically.

    This all started because you stated that white people discriminate and deny it because they're white and by being white have no idea what discrimination really is.
    That's not what I stated. I stated that some whites are unwilling to or incapable of understanding racism from a sociological standpoint. Because of this, they are incapable of understanding how and why racial bigotry by whites is different than racial bigotry by minorities. In this difference, we (those of us capable of sociological understanding) can see that calling a white and a black a racist is a false equivalent.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 04-23-14 at 04:57 AM.

  7. #467
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Racism, defined astutely, is when unjust discrimination is done against a race at the societal level. That is, throughout society. That's why only whites can be racist, because blacks are incapable of unjust discrimination at a societal level.
    That's interesting. Apparently society now has a single corporate decision-making capability with regards to intent.

    So, therefore, hate crime is impossible. Because individuals can't be racist. Only a society can.

  8. #468
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That's interesting. Apparently society now has a single corporate decision-making capability with regards to intent.

    So, therefore, hate crime is impossible. Because individuals can't be racist. Only a society can.
    The collective acts of actual (majority power) racists permeates society.

    Individual whites can be racist, because they have the power to institute the systematic oppression of another race, which is what racism really is.

  9. #469
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    As long as you ascribe to this moronic definition of racism, you will never understand it sociologically.
    Racism is thought. When people act upon their racist thoughts it changes to another form as an action with another term describing it. Discrimination, subjugation, oppression, segregation, and so on.

    You have a good argument to make, you just have a hard time making it. But people that disagree with you (which I find hilarious that you think I am one of them) will not take you seriously if you do not use the correct terminology and do not stop lumping everything under the term racism.

    I disagree that Discrimination is societal. I do agree that racism is societal. I disagree that blacks and other minorities can not be racists.

    You've lumped too many things under the banner of racism. Racism is the catalyst for many of the actions you describe, but those actions are not racism. They can be racist in origin but racism is a thought. When acted upon it becomes something else all together.

    Would you call slavery racism? Or would call slavery, slavery?
    Everything in your life is a reflection of a choice you have made. If you want a different result, don't blame someone else, or expect others to make a change, you should stop complaining and make a different choice. Remember, the circumstances of your birth don't determine the outcome of your life.

  10. #470
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Racism is thought.
    No matter how many times you repeat this, it's not true. Racism is the systematic oppression of a race, and only the majority power is capable of this.

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