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Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

  • Total voters
    93
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

haymarket said:
Where are you getting this idea from? We are people - not property. You are ascribing some absolute right where there is none. And all because you want to be a bigot.
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Actually it's because he supports your right to be a bigot, which you have chosen to be with this statement. You have every right to be a bigot, but's it's not flattering.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

ernst barkmann said:
no ....the constitution states the government shall create no law, which makes some people an exception to the law.

all laws made by government has to apply to all the people equally..........bill gates cannot be exempt from law because he has money......because he lobby's government.
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I have an idea. How about we write an anti-discrimination law protecting business people from customers. If Peter only buys from white guys, the black store owners should be able to sue for discrimination, right? What about all the people who listen to P Diddy (or Puffy, or Sniffy, or whatever the hell he's calling himself today) and don't trade their money (property) in the public sphere for some of Vanilla Ice's products? Sounds racist to me.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
The right to engage in trade. That goes with a person's liberty.
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You do have a right to engage in trade. You do not have a right to engage in trade with me if I don't want to trade with you.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
Benjamin Franklin

The bottom line, yes in principle people should have rights and freedoms but if a people have proven themselves to use their freedom to pursue injustice then its understandable that their freedom will in time have limits. I do not think limiting freedom is ever a good thing but its better than injustice.

This principle applies to many areas. For example: as someone who has lived in high density black areas at times im my life, I used to think it was unfair that grocery stores erected barricades that prevented shoppers from taking their groceries to their cars in shopping carts. Meanwhile the same exact grocery store chain did not erect barricades in more affluent suburban neighborhoods. Then this very principle dawned on me. The only reason the stores did this is because people were stealing the shopping carts in some neighborhoods and not in others. In fact they were actually doing the shoppers in higher shopping cart theft areas a favor by making sure they had shopping carts to use in the store and keeping prices as low as possible by not having to replace shopping carts constantly. Some communities have proven they are not virtuous enough to have gun rights without limits is another example. I love freedom but according to the Founding Fathers, only virtuous people are capable of freedom without restrictions.
 
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Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
So, if someone runs out of gas next to your gas station and you deny them gas because you don't like their race, should they be concerned because they are offended or because they need to get home and want to purchase the gas you sell? If you just want to offend someone wear an offensive shirt but not selling them the gas is unethical to trade.
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Unethical, yep. Cheating in a football game is unethical. Lying is unethical too. Maybe we should have outlawed that before they passed obamacare...
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

FederalRepublic said:
Yes, it is control...of private property, which is what the whole concept of private property is about. If you own it, you control it. If you don't own it, then you have to trade something of equal value (to the person who does own it) in exchange. That precisely why you won't give me your car keys. They are yours and you control them. If I want to control them, I have to get your permission...
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It's control over whether another person gets to purchase a resource or not.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
It's control over whether another person gets to purchase a resource or not.
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You're assuming that that paticular business has a resource that is unique to them and no other business does not provide the same resource.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

FederalRepublic said:
You do have a right to engage in trade. You do not have a right to engage in trade with me if I don't want to trade with you.
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–Prejudice is an ATTITUDE and Discrimination is an ACTION.

The important distinction here is you are free to be prejudice but once you discriminate your action is directly harming another person or group of people. If you own several gas stations in town, or if a person lives in a place where many people dislike you because of your skin color your actions of not granting permission for a group of people to engage in trade of goods and services is extremely powerful. What you are creating is a society of the powerful vs insubordinate and that is what we had in certain places in the US. Places like Nazi Germany also practiced this form of discrimination. There is NOTHING free about that kind of society. If you think that is not the definition of oppression, I don't know what is!
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:
You're assuming that that paticular business has a resource that is unique to them and no other business does not provide the same resource.
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No, I'm not assuming that at all. Making a group of people have to search in hopes to find someone willing to sell to them due to something they have zero power to change is not freedom.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
–Prejudice is an ATTITUDE and Discrimination is an ACTION.

The important distinction here is you are free to be prejudice but once you discriminate your action is directly harming another person or group of people. If you own several gas stations in town, or if a person lives in a place where many people dislike you because of your skin color your actions of not granting permission for a group of people to engage in trade of goods and services is extremely powerful. What you are creating is a society of the powerful vs insubordinate and that is what we had in certain places in the US. Places like Nazi Germany also practiced this form of discrimination. There is NOTHING free about that kind of society. If you think that is not the definition of oppression, I don't know what is!
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Interesting stance.

So if I were to ask a girl out, and she discriminates against me and says no because she doesn't like the color of my skin, would you say that she is oppressing me?

If I am about to enter a business, but I see the proprietor and leave because I don't like the color of his skin, would you say that I am oppressing him?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Federalist said:
Interesting stance.

So if I were to ask a girl out, and she discriminates against me and says no because she doesn't like the color of my skin, would you say that she is oppressing me?

If I am about to enter a business, but I see the proprietor and leave because I don't like the color of his skin, would you say that I am oppressing him?
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Neither of those examples are preventing a person from engaging in trade which any person willingly to follow rules they can control (like behavior) should do with a business, otherwise all that is being produced is oppression.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
No, I'm not assuming that at all. Making a group of people have to search in hopes to find someone willing to sell to them due to something they have zero power to change is not freedom.
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Nor is it restricting freedom. Its life. You have to search to buy products all the time. Another of your assumptions here is that everyone except a few will be racist and not sell a product.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:
Nor is it restricting freedom. Its life. You have to search to buy products all the time. Another of your assumptions here is that everyone except a few will be racist and not sell a product.
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There is a big difference of having to search for a product because you can't find it and having to because you are not being allowed to purchase it in a place due to an attribute that you have no control over changing.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

There are plenty of lessons to be learned from history if we are willing to listen. No society that shuns people due to attributes they have no control of changing has been a free society. It has been the exact opposite. It has been an extremely oppressive and repressive one. On the other hand, civil rights laws exist now and I'm not seeing merchants oppressed because they have to put their prejudices aside in order to conduct business.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
There is a big difference of having to search for a product because you can't find it and having to because you are not being allowed to purchase it in a place due to an attribute that you have no control over changing.
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Not in today's day and age. Internet FTW! You are once again assuming that a person cannot get X product. The ONLY places that I think should not be allowed to discriminate is government owned businesses/services and anything that is dependent on an individual living. If I were to refuse to sell an Ipod to someone because of their skin color that person can easily go out to someplace else and get it. No one has a right to force me into serving them. We abolished that with the 13th and 14th Amendment.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
Neither of those examples are preventing a person from engaging in trade which any person willingly to follow rules they can control (like behavior) should do with a business, otherwise all that is being produced is oppression.
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Example 2 prevents the shopkeeper from engaging in trade. If I walk out of his shop because I don't like the color of his skin, I am preventing him from engaging in trade.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
There are plenty of lessons to be learned from history if we are willing to listen. No society that shuns people due to attributes they have no control of changing has been a free society. It has been the exact opposite. It has been an extremely oppressive and repressive one. On the other hand, civil rights laws exist now and I'm not seeing merchants oppressed because they have to put their prejudices aside in order to conduct business.
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Tell that to Rush Limbaugh who has repeatedly had companies take away their ads from his show because he refuses to put his prejudices aside.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:
Not in today's day and age. Internet FTW! You are once again assuming that a person cannot get X product. The ONLY places that I think should not be allowed to discriminate is government owned businesses/services and anything that is dependent on an individual living. If I were to refuse to sell an Ipod to someone because of their skin color that person can easily go out to someplace else and get it. No one has a right to force me into serving them. We abolished that with the 13th and 14th Amendment.
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If you own a business try telling people they are not allowed to buy your goods because they are black or Jewish or insert whatever attribute, and see if there is no recourse. The 13th and the 14th Amendments don't give you the power to oppress people.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:
Tell that to Rush Limbaugh who has repeatedly had companies take away their ads from his show because he refuses to put his prejudices aside.
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No one said we are not free to hate and be prejudice. There is a difference when that hate and prejudice prevents people to engage in everyday activities including business.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
If you own a business try telling people they are not allowed to buy your goods because they are black or Jewish or insert whatever attribute, and see if there is no recourse. The 13th and the 14th Amendments don't give you the power to oppress people.
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1: Considering the laws of today I have no choice in who I sell to or not. :shrug: You think thats fine and dandy. I don't. We're not talking about what is or isn't. We're talking about "What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?" Which is an opinion based question.

2: You're right, the 13th and 14th amendments does not give me the power to oppress people. In fact it prevents it. Which means you do not have the power to force me to serve you. That is oppression, in fact it is the exact kind of oppression that the 13th and 14th amendments were designed to put a stop to. And that is what you are argueing for. Forcing people to sell products to you whether they want to or not. Why do you think you have a right to oppress me?
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:
1: Considering the laws of today I have no choice in who I sell to or not. :shrug: You think thats fine and dandy. I don't. We're not talking about what is or isn't. We're talking about "What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?" Which is an opinion based question.

2: You're right, the 13th and 14th amendments does not give me the power to oppress people. In fact it prevents it. Which means you do not have the power to force me to serve you. That is oppression, in fact it is the exact kind of oppression that the 13th and 14th amendments were designed to put a stop to. And that is what you are argueing for. Forcing people to sell products to you whether they want to or not. Why do you think you have a right to oppress me?
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Business is suppose to be objective. The person engaging in a business transaction is still free to hate. If they hate black, Jewish or insert any attribute, they can go out and burn a cross, or whatever (violence not included) after they finish their business transaction.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

rabbitcaebannog said:
Business is suppose to be objective. The person engaging in a business transaction is still free to hate. If they hate black, Jewish or insert any attribute, they can go out and burn a cross, or whatever (violence not included) after they finish their business transaction.
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1: Who says business is suppose to be objective? And what proof do you have that it HAS to be objective?

2: We're not talking about businesses. We're talking about the people that run a business vs the buyers.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

Kal'Stang said:
1: Who says business is suppose to be objective? And what proof do you have that it HAS to be objective?

2: We're not talking about businesses. We're talking about the people that run a business vs the buyers.
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Business is a transaction. If people want to look at it as liberty then they must realize liberty needs to be for both parties. The only way to do this is to not attach emotions to transactions. If you do, you run the risk of producing an oppressive society.
 
Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

FederalRepublic said:
So if I simply lock the door to my store and give all the white people in the neighborhood a key, it's now a private business and perfectly ok, in your mind? That's pretty ****ed up.
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No one can be that dense.


FederalRepublic said:
Remedial study of the English language. "Recognized" and "created" are not interchangeable.
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Remedial logic. As they do not create rights, their explicit recognition is not an exhaustive list.
 
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