View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

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  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
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Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #2241
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Mind giving an example?
    Sure. on my residential property I can discriminate against you for being a woman and stop you from entering onto my property purely on that basis. Or on any other basis that is discrimination as detailed by law. At no point can I sexually harass you, not even on my own property. Sexual harassment is illegal outside the workplace, discrimination is not.

    That is by choice.
    So you support some forms of discrimination and not others. So back to my original question. How is it different for the discriminated against group if he shuts down not to serve them or he doesn't serve them while running the business? Ignore the law ATM, as I am asking what is the difference between the two actions, not about the legality of the actions.
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Sure. on my residential property I can discriminate against you for being a woman and stop you from entering onto my property purely on that basis. Or on any other basis that is discrimination as detailed by law. At no point can I sexually harass you, not even on my own property. Sexual harassment is illegal outside the workplace, discrimination is not.
    If your renting the property because there are very specific laws about that which also apply to discrimination. It does not apply if a person is merely on your property or visiting you.

    So you support some forms of discrimination and not others. So back to my original question. How is it different for the discriminated against group if he shuts down not to serve them or he doesn't serve them while running the business? Ignore the law ATM, as I am asking what is the difference between the two actions, not about the legality of the actions.
    A business owner can shut down his business anytime he wishes including because he doesn't want to follow the rules. That is not discrimination.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    If your renting the property because there are very specific laws about that which also apply to discrimination. It does not apply if a person is merely on your property or visiting you.
    Renting/leasing is a business, therefore by your own words that is supposed to be a no no area of discriminating. However, sexual harassment is still illegal no matter what the location; private or public, residence or business. Discrimination is not.

    A business owner can shut down his business anytime he wishes including because he doesn't want to follow the rules. That is not discrimination.
    Question avoidance. Reread the question. We've already moved on past the shutting down part. You've stated that you are alright with that kind of discrimination. I asked you, for the group that is discriminated against, what is different for them if the business owner refuses them service as opposed to the business owner shutting down in order that they not be served? And to refresh, because I forgot it in the last post, although I noted it before when I asked the question: this is the only business if it's kind in town, such as the doctor.
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Renting/leasing is a business, therefore by your own words that is supposed to be a no no area of discriminating. However, sexual harassment is still illegal no matter what the location; private or public, residence or business. Discrimination is not.
    Please quote me that part of the law

    Question avoidance. Reread the question. We've already moved on past the shutting down part. You've stated that you are alright with that kind of discrimination. I asked you, for the group that is discriminated against, what is different for them if the business owner refuses them service as opposed to the business owner shutting down in order that they not be served? And to refresh, because I forgot it in the last post, although I noted it before when I asked the question: this is the only business if it's kind in town, such as the doctor.
    Um, the point is it's not discrimination A person can shut down his business for any reason. Your other question has zip to do with the discussion of discrimination and a very typical strawman.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Please quote me that part of the law
    Which part of which law? We've got a couple of different laws tied up in this one sub-issue

    Um, the point is it's not discrimination A person can shut down his business for any reason. Your other question has zip to do with the discussion of discrimination and a very typical strawman.
    So what is discrimination then? I agree that a person can shut his business down for any number of reasons. You are still avoiding the question. What are you afraid of when it come to the answer? Quite simply, what is the difference in the result to the discriminated group if the business owner shuts down as opposed to the business owner simply not serving them?
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Which part of which law? We've got a couple of different laws tied up in this one sub-issue
    No sub-issue. I want you to quote me the part of the law that forbids sexual harassment non related to work or rental property. TIA

    So what is discrimination then? I agree that a person can shut his business down for any number of reasons. You are still avoiding the question. What are you afraid of when it come to the answer? Quite simply, what is the difference in the result to the discriminated group if the business owner shuts down as opposed to the business owner simply not serving them?
    Um, the person won't get treatment either way. Price of tea in China.....

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    No sub-issue. I want you to quote me the part of the law that forbids sexual harassment non related to work or rental property. TIA
    First what is "TIA"?

    Secondly, Since there is no one law on sexual harassment, it would be hard to quote law. However, this is what I have found so far:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/rights-of-those-accused-of-sexual-harassment.html
    What is Sexual Harassment?

    Sexual harassment is a kind of sex discrimination occurring in the workplace as defined by Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Traditionally, sexual harassment could not occur outside of the workplace. However, new laws are finding it in certain relationships of trust, such as one with a doctor, an attorney, a social worker, a real estate agent, a banker, a contractor, an executor, a landlord, a teacher, and so on.
    However, sexual advances become sexual harassment when they are “unwelcome.” In the context of criminal law, sexual harassment can become criminal when sexual battery or stalking is committed. Sexual battery is the un-consented sexual touching of another person in a way which is harmful or offensive. The exact definition of criminal sexual harassment will differ from state to state since criminal law is largely a domain of state law. The basic idea remains the same though.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.discriminationattorney.com/lawyer-attorney-1287338.html
    (note: this quote is applying to CA law only)
    The law has recently been changed to allow people to sue others for sexual harassment, even when the harassment isn't at the job.

    The following people can be sued for sexual harassment, when they have a business, service, or professional relationship with the person they harassed:

    A person's physician, psychotherapist, or dentist
    Attorneys
    Marriage, family or child counselors, licensed clinical social workers, and those with a Masters Degree in Social Work (MSW)
    Real estate agents and real estate appraisers
    Accountant bankers, trust officer, financial planners and loan officers
    Collection services
    Contractors
    Escrow loan officers
    Executors, trustees, or administrator beneficiaries
    Landlords and property managers
    Teachers
    People who are in a relationship that is substantially similar to any of the above

    The sexual harassment must occur in the context of the relationship. For example, just because a person is a doctor does not mean he can never legally sexually harass anyone. The law says that he can't sexually harass his patients. Teachers can't sexually harass their students, etc.

    What Counts As Harassment?

    Sexual harassment by someone in one of the positions listed above is when he or she does the following:

    Makes sexual advances
    Makes solicitations
    Makes sexual requests
    Makes demands for sexual compliance
    That bold part there shows that sexual harassment can occur outside of the business/trust/work context. In some parts of the country, previously unbeknownst to me, it's actually legal.

    I am making inquires in some other areas. It may well be that what I have been told is sexual harassment uses a different legal term outside of the workplace. But most of the classes and seminars I have attended have taught that these actions are illegal period, regardless of location.

    And yes it is a sub issue. The main issue is discrimination not sexual harassment.

    Um, the person won't get treatment either way. Price of tea in China.....
    Or the person goes to another location to see the service, assuming someone else doesn't fulfill the need in that location. Either way then what's the issue if the results are the same?
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  8. #2248
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by albqowl View Post
    i support each citizen contributing what is necessary for government to perform its constitutionally authorized functions. And yes, i think that should be compulsory. It does not necessarily have to be in the form of taxation, but that is the most practical and least regressive way to do it.
    this is were we disagree, to make taxes complusary...is force....to the founders, your money is your property not to be taken by force.

    Taxes unders the founders was voluntary, you will find after taxes become complusry, ...government expanded outside the constutution.

    Income taxes, ...was a progressive idea of the late 1800's as was democracy for America...two great evils

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    First what is "TIA"?

    Secondly, Since there is no one law on sexual harassment, it would be hard to quote law. However, this is what I have found so far:





    That bold part there shows that sexual harassment can occur outside of the business/trust/work context. In some parts of the country, previously unbeknownst to me, it's actually legal.

    I am making inquires in some other areas. It may well be that what I have been told is sexual harassment uses a different legal term outside of the workplace. But most of the classes and seminars I have attended have taught that these actions are illegal period, regardless of location.

    And yes it is a sub issue. The main issue is discrimination not sexual harassment.



    Or the person goes to another location to see the service, assuming someone else doesn't fulfill the need in that location. Either way then what's the issue if the results are the same?
    Your proof verifies that the person can be charged outside the workplace if "they have a business, service or professional relationship with the person they harassed". It's about power. It is not a sub issue because it is from the same law as discrimination (Civil Right's Act). It is a violation of a human right. Your rights end where another person's begins.

    As far as the second part of your post, the issue is people are not allowed to violate another's right. If they prefer to shut down rather than follow the law, it at least protects the rights of individuals. That is the point.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    It's about power.
    Indeed it is.

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