View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

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  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
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Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #2181
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    so your saying that when the constitutional convention was taking place they didn't debate the clauses that were proposed?
    We went through this before. There is no complete record of the proceedings to examine or refer to. It does not exist.
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  2. #2182
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) correct unless you violate thier rights/law
    2.) another thing nobody is discussing
    3.) you are free to have this opinion and think it matters


    I will ask you AGAIN
    you made the statement "no one has a right to be free, from people not liking you and people not wanting to deal with you."

    and i ask "did somebody say they did"?
    J. I think you are missing the point. There is no point of force that is able way to prevent individuals from believing as they will. And there is no way to prevent individuals from perceiving potential discrimination as they will. At issue is the appropriate use of governmental force. Freedom from discrimination as an individual matter is much different than institutional discrimination. The question of this thread is meaningless without that distinction.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

  3. #2183
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    this is out right stupidity, and a clear effort by you to corrupt the topic.........


    WE are NOT discussing the power to tax.....but the manner of who and how taxes are paid........
    Actually the power to tax was the post you responded to from 2139. You lose.

    read it again...This is from the Constitution: “The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States…”. The glossary from the U.S. Treasury Dept’s International Trade Data System http://www.itds.treas.gov/printglossaryfrm.html defines duty as “a tax levied by a government on the import or export of goods,” imposts as “a tax, especially an import duty,” and excise taxes as “taxes on the manufacture, sale, or consumption of goods, or upon licenses to pursue certain occupations, or upon corporate privileges,” which, they explain, in current usage covers about everything besides income taxes.
    Of course a manual on Trade discusses trade related taxes. And this surprises you because????

    It is NOT however evidence that only those taxes related to trade are taxes and all others are excluded.

    Good point. I also would add that they want it both ways while coming up with pseudo-intellectual mumbo jumbo to justify and rationalize their hypocrisy. The idea that you could operate the USA, the states and the local communities without compulsory taxes is an idea that makes the Mad Hatter in Wonderland look like Albert Einstein.
    So the issue that you took issue with was indeed compulsory taxation.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    this is another corruption by you.......anyone who knows the basics of constitutional law knows, their were NO income taxes on the people, until the civil war, then it was repealed, because it was found not to be legal, the progressives on the late 1800's wanted to create an income tax , however the USSC court opinion on the subject was it was unconstitutional, and the progressives pushed for a constitutional, until they got it in 1913

    your arguments, are even worst lately, then they normally are!
    That is NOT the issue. I posted about the need for taxes to be compulsory and you took issue with that post. Again, you attempt to move the goal posts to a new arena altogether.

    The reality is that your own view about taxation and the power of the national government has absolutely not one single Court ruling that supports such extremism. If I am incorrect in this, simply refer to one.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    You don't think human rights are rights?
    There is no unalienable right or human right, whatever that is, to somebody else's person or property. There should be no right to demand that somebody else provide for us, service us, or give us what they rightfully earned or acquired. A long and bloody war was fought to free the slaves. But some seem it is okay to force some to serve others even yet today. It isn't.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #2186
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    That is NOT the issue. I posted about the need for taxes to be compulsory and you took issue with that post. Again, you attempt to move the goal posts to a new arena altogether.

    The reality is that your own view about taxation and the power of the national government has absolutely not one single Court ruling that supports such extremism. If I am incorrect in this, simply refer to one.
    the post of his you responded to is accurate historically. The temperance movement was a major driving force for the income tax (to counter the charges that banning alcohol would cost the feds lots of excise taxes) as was power hungry senators who saw the income tax as a way to gain extra-constitutional control of americans. Half of that support still exists



  7. #2187
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the post of his you responded to is accurate historically. The temperance movement was a major driving force for the income tax (to counter the charges that banning alcohol would cost the feds lots of excise taxes) as was power hungry senators who saw the income tax as a way to gain extra-constitutional control of americans. Half of that support still exists
    You are right. The TR Roosevelt administration turned the Constitution on its head when Roosevelt declared that government could do whatever the Constitution did not forbid it to do. Up until then, every President saw the federal government as being restricted to only what the Constitution would allow it to do.

    So Roosevelt opened the flood gate and started the snowball rolling. That ban on alcohol and the Sixteenth Amendment were the tip of the iceberg and that is when a permanent political class began to develop. That snowball has been gaining speed, mass and momentum ever since as it increasingly transfers the power from the people to the central government and in the process, steadily erodes protection of our rights, our choices, our options, and our opportunities.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  8. #2188
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    the post of his you responded to is accurate historically. The temperance movement was a major driving force for the income tax (to counter the charges that banning alcohol would cost the feds lots of excise taxes) as was power hungry senators who saw the income tax as a way to gain extra-constitutional control of americans. Half of that support still exists
    I never took issue with the origins of the income tax. That is not and was not the point. I was replying to the idea that taxes must be compulsory.

    my 2139

    Good point. I also would add that they want it both ways while coming up with pseudo-intellectual mumbo jumbo to justify and rationalize their hypocrisy. The idea that you could operate the USA, the states and the local communities without compulsory taxes is an idea that makes the Mad Hatter in Wonderland look like Albert Einstein.
    Barkmann in his immediate following 2140 reproducing my quote

    you just called the idea of the founders "the mad hatter's idea

    compulsory taxes on the people is stealing any way you slice it!

    I honestly have no idea at all what Barkmann's point is or what it has to do with the issue of compulsory taxation.

    Do you?
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-08-14 at 11:23 AM.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    There is no unalienable right or human right, whatever that is, to somebody else's person or property. There should be no right to demand that somebody else provide for us, service us, or give us what they rightfully earned or acquired. A long and bloody war was fought to free the slaves. But some seem it is okay to force some to serve others even yet today. It isn't.
    Does that include taxation?
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #2190
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Does that include taxation?
    Absolutely. The federal government should be restricted to its constitutionally mandated responsibilities and should collect only enough from the people to fund that. It is destructive, evil, and immoral for the government to forcibly confiscate property from those who earn it and give that money to other people who didn't, most especially when the motive behind that is to increase the power, prestige, influence, and personal wealth of those in government.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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