View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

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  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
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Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #1921
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I am assuming that you may unknowingly use such facilities. Do you use any such facilities due to no alternative?
    No, I don't.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I ask this of both Haymarket and Federalist: Has Federalist actually admitted that he uses some sort of government (any level) owned property that has been taked under the use of eminent domain? Additionally does he use this facility(s) freely, because he wants to or is it because the specific facility is something that he needs to do under necessary circumstances and thus does not really have a choice. e.g. an MVA office.
    the answer from Federalist

    Federalist doesn't freely use the results of eminent domain in his daily life. Haymarket, as usual, makes many assumptions, which is why he is mistaken.
    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to drive upon streets, roads and highways built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to use hospitals and medical care facilities built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to use airports built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to use services provided by government employees working in government buildings and facilities built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to interact with people educated and trained to perform job functions in schools built with eminent domain which he benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    I could go on and on with more examples as to how this individual makes free decisions in his daily life to benefit from eminent domain but yet still gets upon his high horse and pretends to oppose it. Sorry but that simply rings hollow when the words are compared to the actions.

    Of course - this brings up the basic contradiction of the right libertarian and exposes the fraud and hypocrisy they live by.

    They justify their hypocrisy by wallowing in the justifying delusion that they have no choice and this life has been imposed upon them by the same bad evil government that they have decided is the Great Satan in all things and it is that evil power which mandates them, which forces them, which compels them to say one thing while living another. Just like the abusive husband who looks down upon his battered wife and sobs in regret that "you made be do it" - they attempt to resolve themselves of their own actions and decisions. Just like the rapist who blames the victim for wearing too sexy clothes or coming on to them or teasing them or leading them on and again with "you made me do it". Just like the speeder ticketed by police who blames their actions upon everyone else on the road who forced them to drive faster than they wanted to ... "I was just trying to keep up with everyone else - they made me do it".

    Its all a bunch of crap. Its all an attempt by weak people to justify their own actions and their own hypocrisy and their own belief systems which run contrary to their actions.

    So somebody else made them do it and they did not do so "freely" or "willingly" or "they did not want to do it".

    Gimme a break. If somebody really truly actually and honestly has such strong objection to the everyday actions that one needs to engage to in our American society and sees fit to condemn them and rant and rally against them - its time to crap or get off the pot.

    But this is merely one of the basic fatal flaws in the right libertarian - they try to talk the talk but are impotent to walk the walk. And in our society, actions speak much much louder than words.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to drive upon streets, roads and highways built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to use hospitals and medical care facilities built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to use airports built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to use services provided by government employees working in government buildings and facilities built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to interact with people educated and trained to perform job functions in schools built with eminent domain which he benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    I could go on and on with more examples as to how this individual makes free decisions in his daily life to benefit from eminent domain but yet still gets upon his high horse and pretends to oppose it. Sorry but that simply rings hollow when the words are compared to the actions.

    Of course - this brings up the basic contradiction of the right libertarian and exposes the fraud and hypocrisy they live by.

    They justify their hypocrisy by wallowing in the justifying delusion that they have no choice and this life has been imposed upon them by the same bad evil government that they have decided is the Great Satan in all things and it is that evil power which mandates them, which forces them, which compels them to say one thing while living another. Just like the abusive husband who looks down upon his battered wife and sobs in regret that "you made be do it" - they attempt to resolve themselves of their own actions and decisions. Just like the rapist who blames the victim for wearing too sexy clothes or coming on to them or teasing them or leading them on and again with "you made me do it". Just like the speeder ticketed by police who blames their actions upon everyone else on the road who forced them to drive faster than they wanted to ... "I was just trying to keep up with everyone else - they made me do it".

    Its all a bunch of crap. Its all an attempt by weak people to justify their own actions and their own hypocrisy and their own belief systems which run contrary to their actions.

    So somebody else made them do it and they did not do so "freely" or "willingly" or "they did not want to do it".

    Gimme a break. If somebody really truly actually and honestly has such strong objection to the everyday actions that one needs to engage to in our American society and sees fit to condemn them and rant and rally against them - its time to crap or get off the pot.

    But this is merely one of the basic fatal flaws in the right libertarian - they try to talk the talk but are impotent to walk the walk. And in our society, actions speak much much louder than words.
    As I said, you know nothing about me or my actions. As usual, you are making assumptions, which is why you are wrong.

    You want to make it illegal for a property owner to control who has access to his own property. I oppose this policy, since I oppose the initiation of aggression. What do you think gives you (or anyone) the right to threaten the use of force against your neighbor for the "crime" of preventing someone access to his property?
    Last edited by Federalist; 05-03-14 at 08:57 AM.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    As I said, you know nothing about me or my actions. As usual, you are making assumptions, which is why you are wrong.
    Then feel free to tell me which actions of yours I am incorrectly discussing. Here is your chance to clear it up.

    I contend that you use and benefit from streets and roads and highways and airports and terminals and services provided for by government employees working out of government buildings and some of these were built using the power of eminent domain. I contend that you benefit from interactions with other Americans educated or trained in schools built with the power of eminent domain. I contend that you have used medical facilities built with the power of eminent domain.

    So here is your chance to clear up what you characterize as me knowing nothing. Come clean and tell us about these "assumptions" and why they are wrong. Tell us how an American can live among us in society, have computer access and not do ANY of those things.

    This I gotta hear.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Then feel free to tell me which actions of yours I am incorrectly discussing. Here is your chance to clear it up.

    I contend that you use and benefit from streets and roads and highways and airports and terminals and services provided for by government employees working out of government buildings and some of these were built using the power of eminent domain. I contend that you benefit from interactions with other Americans educated or trained in schools built with the power of eminent domain. I contend that you have used medical facilities built with the power of eminent domain.

    So here is your chance to clear up what you characterize as me knowing nothing. Come clean and tell us about these "assumptions" and why they are wrong. Tell us how an American can live among us in society, have computer access and not do ANY of those things.

    This I gotta hear.
    Those are interesting assumptions. But, as I'm sure you are aware, in a debate, when one makes accusations, one must then back up those accusations with proof. So put up or shut up, and provide proof.

  6. #1926
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to drive upon streets, roads and highways built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to use hospitals and medical care facilities built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to use airports built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to use services provided by government employees working in government buildings and facilities built with eminent domain which he uses and benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?

    Are we to believe that Federalist is being held in a imprisoned condition of involuntary servitude and is being forced to interact with people educated and trained to perform job functions in schools built with eminent domain which he benefits from but which he pretends to oppose on principle and is completely and utterly powerless and impotent to do anything else?
    Is it your position that all such facilities or even most are created through the use of eminent domain? Are not all of these uses supposed to first go through a voluntary process where by the previous owner is given a change to sell before eminent domain is invoked?

    Additionally, it is not always possible to tell when certain facilities are created through the use of eminent doamin. In such cases, once he knows he can then use other methods by which to facilitate. In other cases, there is no alternative to the use of a facility created by eminent domain. In either situation there is no willful free use of the facility.

    So somebody else made them do it and they did not do so "freely" or "willingly" or "they did not want to do it".
    If there is indeed a government function that is required of you and the only facility available is one obtained via eminent domain, then there is indeed no choice. When it is unknown then that use is not willingly in the context of knowledge.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Those are interesting assumptions. But, as I'm sure you are aware, in a debate, when one makes accusations, one must then back up those accusations with proof. So put up or shut up, and provide proof.
    I just did. You see Federalist - unless you are some hermit living off the grid and isolated from everyone and everything else - it would be impossible for you to live without benefitting from things built from eminent domain. It is simply not possible.


    But if I am wrong feel free to tell me which actions of yours I am incorrectly discussing. Here is your chance to clear it up.

    I contend that you use and benefit from streets and roads and highways and airports and terminals and services provided for by government employees working out of government buildings and some of these were built using the power of eminent domain. I contend that you benefit from interactions with other Americans educated or trained in schools built with the power of eminent domain. I contend that you have used medical facilities built with the power of eminent domain.

    So here is your chance to clear up what you characterize as me knowing nothing. Come clean and tell us about these "assumptions" and why they are wrong. Tell us how an American can live among us in society, have computer access and not do ANY of those things.

    See Federalist, the burden of proof has now shifted to you. You want to contend that I am wrong and making false assumptions about you but the only way those assumptions can be false is if you live a life style that is not something that probably 99.99% of Americans do. So you are claiming you are the exception to the rule that nearly everybody else lives by. That is your only way out of the corner you have painted yourself into. And in that corner the burden of proof is solely upon you.

    Of course, you WILL NOT DO THIS as the claim itself is absurd and foolish. One cannot simply live in the USA without benefitting from the things I described. It simply cannot be done by the average American living a normal life. But if you are NOT the average American living a normal life and you want to claim you are the exception to the rule - please do step up and prove that.

    The very computer you type upon each day got to you using these things and you benefit from that and willingly do so. It is self evident and beyond denial.

    Again - this I gotta hear.

    But of course, you will not do that as what you are trying to do is walk a very high tightrope claiming you are against the very things that you use and benefit from. In short - you want to find some loophole that lets you out of your own hypocrisy and permits you to continue living a lie while making pretty-sounding personal pontifications of political belief that say otherwise.
    Last edited by haymarket; 05-03-14 at 09:23 AM.
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Is it your position that all such facilities or even most are created through the use of eminent domain? Are not all of these uses supposed to first go through a voluntary process where by the previous owner is given a change to sell before eminent domain is invoked?

    Additionally, it is not always possible to tell when certain facilities are created through the use of eminent doamin. In such cases, once he knows he can then use other methods by which to facilitate. In other cases, there is no alternative to the use of a facility created by eminent domain. In either situation there is no willful free use of the facility.



    If there is indeed a government function that is required of you and the only facility available is one obtained via eminent domain, then there is indeed no choice. When it is unknown then that use is not willingly in the context of knowledge.
    Living in America is the ultimate choice. And Federalist has freely and willingly made that choice. We all have and somebody with his intelligence cannot pretend to know how much of this country was built and the role eminent domain played in it. It simply is a ridiculous assertion that is a shameless attempt to justify ones own personal hypocrisy.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I just did. You see Federalist - unless you are some hermit living off the grid and isolated from everyone and everything else - it would be impossible for you to live without benefitting from things built from eminent domain. It is simply not possible.


    But if I am wrong feel free to tell me which actions of yours I am incorrectly discussing. Here is your chance to clear it up.

    I contend that you use and benefit from streets and roads and highways and airports and terminals and services provided for by government employees working out of government buildings and some of these were built using the power of eminent domain. I contend that you benefit from interactions with other Americans educated or trained in schools built with the power of eminent domain. I contend that you have used medical facilities built with the power of eminent domain.

    So here is your chance to clear up what you characterize as me knowing nothing. Come clean and tell us about these "assumptions" and why they are wrong. Tell us how an American can live among us in society, have computer access and not do ANY of those things.

    See Federalist, the burden of proof has now shifted to you. You want to contend that I am wrong and making false assumptions about you but the only way those assumptions can be false is if you live a life style that is not something that probably 99.99% of Americans do. So you are claiming you are the exception to the rule that nearly everybody else lives by. That is your only way out of the corner you have painted yourself into. And in that corner the burden of proof is solely upon you.

    Of course, you WILL NOT DO THIS as the claim itself is absurd and foolish. One cannot simply live in the USA without benefitting from the things I described. It simply cannot be done by the average American living a normal life. But if you are NOT the average American living a normal life and you want to claim you are the exception to the rule - please do step up and prove that.

    Again - this I gotta hear.
    More assumptions. Still no proof. You have no idea where I live or what actions I take. You are merely making up stories.

    I don't have to prove that you are wrong. You are wrong until you prove that you're not wrong. That's the way debate works. If you make an assertion, you have to prove it.

    But of course, you will not do that as what you are trying to do is walk a very high tightrope claiming you are against the very things that you use and benefit from.
    What you assume I use and benefit from, you mean.
    Last edited by Federalist; 05-03-14 at 09:25 AM.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Living in America is the ultimate choice. And Federalist has freely and willingly made that choice. We all have and somebody with his intelligence cannot pretend to know how much of this country was built and the role eminent domain played in it. It simply is a ridiculous assertion that is a shameless attempt to justify ones own personal hypocrisy.
    Is it the ultimate choice? I know I do not have the financial wherewithal to move to another country. At this point I doubt that I could move to another state.
    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

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