View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

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  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
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Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #1571
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by DashingAmerican View Post
    Other than buying what their selling? Nothing.

    Let me ask you this. Should banks, assuming most businesses have to get loans to open up, be able to dictate that said business serve everyone in order to get the loan they need?
    Very few banks are purely private institutions. All are essentially contractors of and subject to license and regulation and funding by the U.S. government; therefore public access must be non discriminatory. A purely private business is a very different animal. While I have no problem saying that the moral and ethical and smart business practice would be to serve and accommodate all people, I also know that if a person is not free to make wrong choices too, he or she has no freedom at all.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    That's your opinion.
    No actually its not. Its historical fact. Read up on the Founders Notes. The States did not want the Federal government interfereing with what happened inside the States.
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Riiiiight. You really think that if whites had been through centuries of slavery, another century of Jim Crow against whites that people still alive today would remember very well, that we wouldn't be fighting every bit as hard to not be discriminated against?
    Out of curiosity why are you making this about whites vs every other race out there? You do realize that the rights we are talking about applies to them as business owners right? A black business owner has just as much Right to refuse service to a white person as any other race, including whites.
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  4. #1574
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Disagree. These rights are still there and still exist. Exercising them may result in the property owner revoking your privilege to be on his property, but the property cannot remove nor prevent their exercise. I find this to be a very important distinction. You can invite me on your property. Once I am on your property, you cannot infringe upon my free speech rights. Asking me to leave because you do not like what I said when exercising my right of free speech does nothing to infringe upon that right and is well within your personal property rights. Any attempt to silence me (outside of trying to out-shout me or telling me to be quiet) while I am on your property and/or while I am leaving, however would be a violation of my free speech right and you are not legally allowed to do so.
    let me be clearer....you have rights which can be exercised, however you cannot exercise them on my property If I do not want you to, I can ask you to leave at anytime. if you seek to disrupt I will can call the police, if you use force, I can return force



    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    This right does not exist. The right is to seek a person to engage in commerce with. Even on your own property you have no right to commerce. You still only have the right to seek someone to engage in commerce with. If they are on your property and do not wish to engage in commerce with you then there will be no commerce. You right to seek someone to engage in commerce with has not been violated..
    your correct its just a matter of wording, and I worded it incorrectly I don't have a right to commerce in a sense of, I will have commerce, I have the right to seek as you say commerce if an individual or more would wish to transact with me.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    You can also get fired for doing stuff they don't like on your own property or someone else's property. That was my point not just they can fire you for anything on their property. That's a given. You can't even use social media to talk about things they may not like in your private life. You risk losing your job if they don't like it. Yes, you can seek employment else where and all of the above still applies. At will companies are authoritarian. There is no getting around it.
    yes, we is were we can find agreement, some companies are getting involved in your personal life which has nothing to do with the company you work for, ..one of the reasons I want contract law, you and your company come to terms on employment, as long as you fulfill your end of the written contract, they cannot fire for things they just don't like.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    That's not the nature of due process.
    Due process is what you are discussing with someone else. Keep up. You claim that no one should deny another business or resource based on unchangeable attributes, but you then turn around and allow the buyer to deny business or resource to the seller due to unchangeable attributes. Face it, it's bloody hypocritical.

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    You can also get fired for doing stuff they don't like on your own property or someone else's property. That was my point not just they can fire you for anything on their property. That's a given. You can't even use social media to talk about things they may not like in your private life. You risk losing your job if they don't like it. Yes, you can seek employment else where and all of the above still applies. At will companies are authoritarian. There is no getting around it.
    Well given that the job itself is their property, it is indeed theirs to do with as they wish. They can fire you because you looked at someone crossed eye. They can fire you simply because they felt like firing someone today. I agree that it's not right, but it is within their rights. Rights that you no doubt wish to have violated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    The commerce clause was abused in that situation. The commerce clause is supposed to only allow the government to regulate sales between the states and sales with other countries. It was never meant to regulate private businesses. It's not the first time its been abused.
    I'll disagree here only because private businesses would be the ones engaging in sales between states, therefore there would be some regulation on such private businesses. However, that regulation is only supposed to be on actual interstate commerce. For example, if my company makes a widget, if I am selling it only within my state, then any applicable state laws apply, and the federal level isn't supposed to make any regulation over it. Now if I want to sell my widget in other states, then per the commerce clause they can make regulations regarding my widgets. However those regulations would only apply to the widgets I want to sell out of state. All of my in-state commerce is still only covered by state regulations. Similarly, if I am selling my widgets to another company that is within my state and that company wishes to sell them out of state, the regulations apply to them and not me. So if the regulation was, say no more than 5 manufactured holes in the widget, if I was the one selling them out of state, I would have to manufacture them to that spec. If I'm only selling to the other businesses, then I can still make widgets with 6 holes and he can buy them if he wants, but he'll not be able to sell them out of state due to the federal regulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    let me be clearer....you have rights which can be exercised, however you cannot exercise them on my property If I do not want you to, I can ask you to leave at anytime. if you seek to disrupt I will can call the police, if you use force, I can return force
    Yes I can. That's the point that you are not getting. As I said, you can't legally stop my exercising of those rights in and of itself. All you can do is revoke my privilege to be on your property. Reread the example. If I am already on your property by your permission and then I say something you don't like, I am still exercising my free speech rights even if it is against your wish. Even in the process of my moving the 50 yards (for argument's sake) it takes for me to leave the property upon you revoking my privilege to be on it, you still cannot stop my exercising my rights. I can still be yammering away. If you have a reasonable expectation that I will exercise my rights in a manner that you do not wish on your property, you can certainly head it off at the pass by never granting me the privilege of being on your property. But you will not always know that such things will happen in advance. Do you understand the key difference?
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Due process is what you are discussing with someone else. Keep up. You claim that no one should deny another business or resource based on unchangeable attributes, but you then turn around and allow the buyer to deny business or resource to the seller due to unchangeable attributes. Face it, it's bloody hypocritical.



    Well given that the job itself is their property, it is indeed theirs to do with as they wish. They can fire you because you looked at someone crossed eye. They can fire you simply because they felt like firing someone today. I agree that it's not right, but it is within their rights. Rights that you no doubt wish to have violated.



    I'll disagree here only because private businesses would be the ones engaging in sales between states, therefore there would be some regulation on such private businesses. However, that regulation is only supposed to be on actual interstate commerce. For example, if my company makes a widget, if I am selling it only within my state, then any applicable state laws apply, and the federal level isn't supposed to make any regulation over it. Now if I want to sell my widget in other states, then per the commerce clause they can make regulations regarding my widgets. However those regulations would only apply to the widgets I want to sell out of state. All of my in-state commerce is still only covered by state regulations. Similarly, if I am selling my widgets to another company that is within my state and that company wishes to sell them out of state, the regulations apply to them and not me. So if the regulation was, say no more than 5 manufactured holes in the widget, if I was the one selling them out of state, I would have to manufacture them to that spec. If I'm only selling to the other businesses, then I can still make widgets with 6 holes and he can buy them if he wants, but he'll not be able to sell them out of state due to the federal regulations.



    Yes I can. That's the point that you are not getting. As I said, you can't legally stop my exercising of those rights in and of itself. All you can do is revoke my privilege to be on your property. Reread the example. If I am already on your property by your permission and then I say something you don't like, I am still exercising my free speech rights even if it is against your wish. Even in the process of my moving the 50 yards (for argument's sake) it takes for me to leave the property upon you revoking my privilege to be on it, you still cannot stop my exercising my rights. I can still be yammering away. If you have a reasonable expectation that I will exercise my rights in a manner that you do not wish on your property, you can certainly head it off at the pass by never granting me the privilege of being on your property. But you will not always know that such things will happen in advance. Do you understand the key difference?
    your taking things down to, too fine a point......I can stop you, not 99.9 % of the time physically... I ask you to leave, if you refuse I call the police. it you start to use force I feel is a threat in exercising a right [privilege while your on my property], I can use force back.

    I have no way to read your mind, while on my property, so you can engage in exercising a right, until I put and end to it, by one of the examples which would apply I listed above. so your going down to a fine point, which I am using generality....because i feel it i go to fine in my message, its goes over people heads, which it does sometimes in using general terms.
    Last edited by Master PO; 04-27-14 at 04:33 AM.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The reason some do not care about freedom from unjust discrimination is they're white and suffer no such threat on a societal level. The world ends at their nose.
    That and we're just tired of you people complaining about every damn thing, yeah.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Freedom From Discrimination! Who wants to be discriminated here???

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Due process is
    : a course of formal proceedings (as legal proceedings) carried out regularly and in accordance with established rules and principles —called also procedural due process
    That doesn't answer the question of in what way these other people are different and special.

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