View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

Voters
115. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
Page 144 of 230 FirstFirst ... 4494134142143144145146154194 ... LastLast
Results 1,431 to 1,440 of 2291

Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #1431
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,857
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, someone else try to explain the difference. You didn't seem to follow it. I said said it wasn't the same thing. You said they were. I them explained the difference.

    Now, if you'll concede the difference we can move on, as I said.
    Don't know what to tell you. I used your own definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And no, they have manly laws to follow when they choose to go into business. It's the nature if business. Now, you don't have to go into business. No one makes you. But when you choose to, as with many other professions, you accept that you will have to follow the rules. So, you have choice, and you get compensated. So in no way is it servitude.
    You're right, we do have many laws that business owners must follow. All of them, with this exception are about businesses not being able to interfere in other peoples rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Btw, denying them service does interfere with their rights. We have a long history on this to draw from. We only have to look at it see the effect of such denials.
    No, we have a long history of government enforced segregation and rights violations.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  2. #1432
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,857
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And THAT is where you are confusing your personal opinion with the reality of human nature. It does. not. matter. whether you are right are wrong - REPEAT, it does. not. matter. whether you are right or wrong.

    Why?

    Because you are forgetting that when it comes to human nature - particularly with the masses - perception IS reality. Pass a bill that allows discrimination, and the first time it occurs - and occur it will - the video of it will be spread across the planet in a matter of minutes. And what will happen then? Riots in the area of the discriminating business...and all the problems and danger that goes along with riots.

    Hatred between the races will grow as a direct result. More people will die. And the hatred and spite that is ever-so-slowly going away from the time of Jim Crow will come roaring back. Do you think I'm exaggerating? We had more riots across the nation during the 1960's than at any other comparable period in American history. Think about it, guy - the PERCEPTION among nonwhites, and among blacks in particular, would be that we ARE going back to Jim Crow...and all your twisted logic to the contrary won't make a tinker's damn of a difference. The PERCEPTION is all that really matters...and suddenly you've got over ten million blacks - and tens of millions more of Hispanics - who will have the PERCEPTION that White America is turning against them...and they will not sit idly or peacefully by and allow it to happen.

    But hey - as you and yours get shot at, at least you'll be able to tell your wife and children as they're ducking from bullets, "See? Now we've got REAL freedom!" I'm suuuure they'd much rather have that than being able to walk down the street in peace, huh?

    Sometimes, guy, "freedom" ain't what you think it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And later when you're getting beat into the ground by a bunch of blacks that you refused to sell to because they are black, I guess it will be very comforting to tell yourself that you were just "standing up for your rights". I'm sure that is worth the broken bones, the blood spilling out onto the sidewalk, and the heartbreak your family would feel. But hey - at least your "property and body weren't getting violated", right?
    Talk about over dramatizing things. Tell me, where were the riots when Rush Limbaugh said a racist statement (multiple times across the years)? Are there currently riots happening with Cliven Bundy?

    And if there are riots? That's what the national guard and police are for. To keep the peace. People do not have a right to riot. Nor can they violate other peoples rights just because of some perception that they have.

    And yes, it would be comforting that rights are being upheld even while I'm getting beat up.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  3. #1433
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Don't know what to tell you. I used your own definition.



    You're right, we do have many laws that business owners must follow. All of them, with this exception are about businesses not being able to interfere in other peoples rights.



    No, we have a long history of government enforced segregation and rights violations.
    No you did not use mine. We took yours and tried to you your error.

    And no, laws cover treatment of the customer in many of them. You are merely exaggerating what's being done.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #1434
    Sage
    rabbitcaebannog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Last Seen
    12-09-17 @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,918

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    1: People have a right to life, a doctor not treating them endangers that life. The government has a valid power in ensuring that people get medical attention.

    2: Most private doctors do not have the tools necessary to carry out life saving surgury in their clinics. As such they must send the patient to the hospital if such is needed. Those hospitals are generally called "community hospitals" for a reason. They are funded in large part due to contributions and government monies. Which makes them public hospitals and therefore under the same mandate that any other government institution would be regarding discrimination. Not allowed to.

    This applies to any privately owned business also. If you take money from the government then you are in essence employed by the government to provide a service, as such you are under the same mandate of non-discimination.
    Therein lies the rub. That is not true. Did you know that private schools that take public money are not mandated by law (like public schools) to service special needs students or any particular group of students? They still have a right to cherry pick.
    Last edited by rabbitcaebannog; 04-26-14 at 09:00 AM.

  5. #1435
    Sage
    rabbitcaebannog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Last Seen
    12-09-17 @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,918

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    They're not being asked. They're being forced. There is a difference.

    There is also a difference between what happened Pre-Civil Rights era and what I am suggesting. Pre-Civil Rights they had laws that were made, supported, and enforced segregation by the government. That is something which you are failing to mention in your talks about the Civil Rights. It was government force that was creating an air of fear and hatred because a black would go to prison for violating the laws by sitting next to a white person. What I am suggesting leaves the government totally out of it. The government cannot support or enforce segregation.
    Yes, and I exposed big funded group(s) pushing this line of BS. The same group(s) that ironically want to take your liberty away on your own private property. I'm pretty much done with falling for their cr*p. If people like and feel this is all fair and wonderful that is fine with me. Just don't put the label freedom on oppression. I'm calling a spade a spade. No group of people should have that much power over individuals because it is not freedom. What I equally find ironic is these group(s) call themselves libertarian. They have bastardized the term. Now these people (I'm referring to big money pushing this line) want to be able to control people's actions based on race, religion, sexual orientation etc....You can label this freedom but I don't. It's oppression and it's about control. They just don't like the government drawing a line in the sand and putting in such laws to protect individuals unless of course it is them. They want to act in any manner they please without restraint because they are a privileged group. The moneyed group. After all, they own lots of property and resources. They should have full control of them. Everyday small business owners don't have a real desire for this unless they are racist or have a hatred for certain groups of people. I would like to think that is the minority but they are not the ones who own most of our resources that have been privatized into their hands like energy and such. Nor, would getting rid of Civil Rights Law really give them an advantage. The big advantage will go to those who own the most. Furthermore, the trend is for more and more resources to become privatized from fire and police services to all things energy related including many local municipalities. If people like to choose private resources don't let them choose you. It is not freedom to choose for you but for them. Imagine public safety infrastructure becoming privatized and they being able to select who they will service? That's pretty disturbing. At the very least buyer beware. It is no longer free market. It's selective market.

    Rant over. That felt good

    As far as Jim Crow laws, they were state and local. Even in places they were not enforced, black people were still oppressed. Make no mistake, Civil Rights Laws were needed as they continue to be needed.

  6. #1436
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Last Seen
    01-27-15 @ 11:37 AM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,247

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    No, you do know quite well what I mean. Yes, you do.

    And as I asked the other guys, if you got a law passed allowing discrimination, with the knowledge that the state would have to physically back up a business' "right" to discriminate, the PERCEPTION among nonwhites - and among blacks in particular - is that white America is turning against them. You can stand there all day long using your "violation of body and property" line, but the PERCEPTION among tens of millions of minorities would be that we are returning to the days of Jim Crow...

    ...and they would not sit back and peacefully accept what they PERCEIVE as government-backed racism. Remember what happened when Rodney King got beat up by four cops? The riots weren't just in LA, if you'll recall. Now imagine what would happen when the minority population sees the federal government explicitly allowing racism. It would make the Watts riots a cakewalk in comparison...especially since a much greater percentage of minorities have firearms today than they did back in the 1960's.

    Is this really where you want America to go? Is it really? Is your 'right' to racially discriminate really worth all the death and destruction and increased hatred that would last generations?
    My answer to you is that I don't think for one second that there would be riots.

    So I've answered your question, but you haven't answered mine yet. Do you think you have the right to violate the body or property of your fellow man in order to coerce him to trade with someone against his will?

  7. #1437
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,857
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Therein lies the rub. That is not true. Did you know that private schools that take public money are not mandated by law (like public schools) to service special needs students or any particular group of students? They still have a right to cherry pick.
    Like I have said all along, if any business takes government money then they should not be allowed to discriminate. What "is and isn't currently" does not concern me as much as what "should be".
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  8. #1438
    Global Moderator
    The Truth is out there.
    Kal'Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry ID USA
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    32,857
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    Yes, and I exposed big funded group(s) pushing this line of BS. The same group(s) that ironically want to take your liberty away on your own private property. I'm pretty much done with falling for their cr*p. If people like and feel this is all fair and wonderful that is fine with me. Just don't put the label freedom on oppression. I'm calling a spade a spade. No group of people should have that much power over individuals because it is not freedom. What I equally find ironic is these group(s) call themselves libertarian. They have bastardized the term. Now these people (I'm referring to big money pushing this line) want to be able to control people's actions based on race, religion, sexual orientation etc....You can label this freedom but I don't. It's oppression and it's about control. They just don't like the government drawing a line in the sand and putting in such laws to protect individuals unless of course it is them. They want to act in any manner they please without restraint because they are a privileged group. The moneyed group. After all, they own lots of property and resources. They should have full control of them. Everyday small business owners don't have a real desire for this unless they are racist or have a hatred for certain groups of people. I would like to think that is the minority but they are not the ones who own most of our resources that have been privatized into their hands like energy and such. Nor, would getting rid of Civil Rights Law really give them an advantage. The big advantage will go to those who own the most. Furthermore, the trend is for more and more resources to become privatized from fire and police services to all things energy related including many local municipalities. If people like to choose private resources don't let them choose you. It is not freedom to choose for you but for them. Imagine public safety infrastructure becoming privatized and they being able to select who they will service? That's pretty disturbing. At the very least buyer beware. It is no longer free market. It's selective market.

    Rant over. That felt good

    As far as Jim Crow laws, they were state and local. Even in places they were not enforced, black people were still oppressed. Make no mistake, Civil Rights Laws were needed as they continue to be needed.
    Feel better?

    Personally I am poor, so money is obviously not driving me. I'm not a business owner either so that is not driving me. And if I did own a business I would not be one of those that I have been argueing on behalf of. I would let anyone and everyone purchase any property that I have for sell. So obviously racism and bigotry are not driving my arguement.

    What IS driving my arguement is The Peoples Rights. No one has the Right to force me or anyone else to sell my/their property to anyone unless I/they want to. It is my/their property. I/They have the say in who it is sold to. No one else does. Not even the government.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  9. #1439
    Sage
    rabbitcaebannog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Last Seen
    12-09-17 @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,918

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Like I have said all along, if any business takes government money then they should not be allowed to discriminate. What "is and isn't currently" does not concern me as much as what "should be".
    Then in that particular respect, I am more of a realistic than an idealist. I DO care about what "is" because that has a direct impact on us no matter how it feels. Powerful moneyed groups will continue to push what they like because they have the means. That is one huge issue about these vouches in private hands but I digress.

  10. #1440
    Sage
    rabbitcaebannog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Last Seen
    12-09-17 @ 08:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,918

    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Feel better?

    Personally I am poor, so money is obviously not driving me. I'm not a business owner either so that is not driving me. And if I did own a business I would not be one of those that I have been argueing on behalf of. I would let anyone and everyone purchase any property that I have for sell. So obviously racism and bigotry are not driving my arguement.

    What IS driving my arguement is The Peoples Rights. No one has the Right to force me or anyone else to sell my/their property to anyone unless I/they want to. It is my/their property. I/They have the say in who it is sold to. No one else does. Not even the government.
    Yes, it was cleansing

    In theory, that sounds rather great.

    At first, my perception was completely off. I thought perhaps some KKK fringe group was trying to advocate such a thing because there is a motive for everything. Who would really care about something so hurtful to a large group of people? On further research, I found quite the opposite. This is not being pushed by racist groups who want the freedom to discriminate based on someone's attributes. This is all over libertarian think tanks funded by de-facto libertarians. They are funded by a wealthy few trying to market to the rest of us this version of utopia. It suddenly made sense. Why would a small business owner even care if he can sell to a person based on attributes? They probably don't really even give this kind of crap consideration. Those who do basically, just want more control in who they can select to purchase their privatized resources. Hell if you owned vast amount of private resources, and had the money to push for complete control over them, who wouldn't want that kind of power but that kind of power (which is human nature) needs to be curb. At least that is my opinion. I don't believe privatized resources of any kind should be controlled by the owner in such a manner where consumers no longer select, but the owner does. It presents all sorts of problems. Mostly, the wealthy would prefer to make scarce resources available to them well before the masses. I read an article once about the difference between citizens and consumers. As things become more privatized, we will become more like consumers than citizens. The beauty being pushed by free marketers was instead of us being held hostage with no choice by government resources, if privatized, we as consumers can shop for whatever private resource we please to choose. Now, I see that was a bunch of bunk being pushed because the same "free marketers" don't really want you to have the freedom to choose. They want the freedom to choose you. To me that is not freedom. That is the very definition of a Plutocracy.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •