View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

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  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
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Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #1011
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    It puts people out of their natural settings. Humans are social creatures and the urge to build societies in a manner we have seen historically is a part of us. If you take that away, people are less and will seek to fulfill their urges in more volatile ways.
    It is personal liberty that is the incentive to sustained individual effort and it is personal liberty that is the chief initiative to personal responsibility. When the community or the government decides on the affairs of individuals incentive to sustained individual effort is lacking, and each individual is more inclined to blame the faults of the system or the shortcomings of his neighbors for his problems than to place blame on the faults of themselves.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by rabbitcaebannog View Post
    And you don't think it doesn't place a burden on a person if they are forbidden to conduct business due to another person's prejudices?

    no!....because your coming to me for something, i am not coming to you wanting something.

    you are the one MAKING THE DEMAND......PLACING THE BURDEN.

  3. #1013
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    That would be government enforced property rights.

    I don't think the scenario you paint would happen. But nevertheless, no individual has the right to violate (or threaten to violate) the body or property of his fellow man in order to coerce him into engaging in trade with someone against his will.

    What you are condoning (violating another person's body or property without the right to do so) is unjust. One cannot achieve justice by employing unjust means.
    And you can hide behind legal rhetoric if you want...but legal rhetoric is not what would be driving the tectonic shift in society. Your rhetoric is just like what the racists used when they supported "separate but equal" for schools and access to public places. Sure, the "separate but equal" rhetoric SOUNDED nice...but in REALITY, the 'equality' was anything but equal.
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  4. #1014
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    no!....because your coming to me for something, i am not coming to you wanting something.

    you are the one MAKING THE DEMAND......PLACING THE BURDEN.
    There is no right for a buissness to designate lunch counters as "whites only" or "blacks only".

    "Seperate but equal" is unconstitutional.
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  5. #1015
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    It is personal liberty that is the incentive to sustained individual effort and it is personal liberty that is the chief initiative to personal responsibility. When the community or the government decides on the affairs of individuals incentive to sustained individual effort is lacking, and each individual is more inclined to blame the faults of the system or the shortcomings of his neighbors than to place blame on the faults of themselves for whatever problem they might be suffering from.
    I partially agree. A sense of achievement and ability to take life by the horns is very motivating. I agree with that.

    The rest of your statement, I agree that someone must take responsibility (whether that responsibility is deserved or not, often its just life being crappy for no specific reason and morally, responsibility should not have to be taken as there is no fault, but this is another discussion) to gain the ability to say "I will fix that" and then do the actions necessary to resolve an issue. But I disagree that this is a default or a should, it is based on whether an issue is a big enough problem that someone thinks they should address it and there aren't other alternatives available. It's just a mindset necessary to solve a problem sometimes.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    You mean like when a business owner uses his body and mind to build a product, he has the right to refuse service to whomever they choose? That's pretty much the opposite of everything you've argued thus far on this thread.
    Nope, then they are using their body to create a product which at no time is part of the creator's body. I'm strictly talking about direct sale of one's actual body, not the same at all.
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Your HOUSE is not a BUSINESS that is open to the PUBLIC.

    You can do or say whatever the heck you want inside your HOUSE. But in a business open to the public? No.
    Even though he may have some sort of justification for doing so,no individual has the right to violate (or threaten to violate) the body or property of his fellow man in order to coerce him into engaging in trade with someone against his will. Saying, "well, I consider your business to be 'open to the public'" makes no difference. No person has the right to initiation such aggression against someone just to force them to trade with someone against their will.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    There is no right for a buissness to designate lunch counters as "whites only" or "blacks only".

    "Seperate but equal" is unconstitutional.

    THE CONSTITUTION OF THE U.S. PERTAINS TO GOVERNMENTS ONLY.....NOT THE PEOPLE.

    there i nothing higher than a RIGHT, it is why government is created in the first place to secure them......if rights did not need to be secure....."no government would be necessary"

    you are saying that federal law, and state laws, are higher than a RIGHT, and can rule over them, and that is false, the bill of rights, restricts government from creating ANY LAW, which would violate a right......that includes right to property.

    are you going to stay on your position that all RIGHTS are subject to government approval?

  9. #1019
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    THE CONSTITUTION OF THE U.S. PERTAINS TO GOVERNMENTS ONLY.....NOT THE PEOPLE.
    Civil Rights Act of 1964 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  10. #1020
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    I think there are three kinds of people who believe we should repeal parts of the civil rights act and allow businesses to discriminate based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. You've got:

    A. Libertarians who believe that if we give businesses the right to discriminate, that's not only what our founding fathers would want but also everything will work itself out anyway because of free market or supply and demand or freedoms and liberty something.

    B. Racist/sexist/otherwise bigoted people who own a business or wouldn't want to serve black/female/gay people if they did own a business.

    C. People who have no understanding of history or how horrible and racist and bigoted some people are.

    You can't argue with A, because they either understand what they're advocating for and don't care or they don't understand what they're advocating and cannot be told. The ghost of Christmas future would have to visit them and show them what would happen if the civil rights act were repealed for them to understand that anti-discrimination laws are a large part of what is preventing black Americans (among others) from be treated as lesser people and suffering greatly in large portions of the country.

    You can't argue with B, because they want an America where black people are treated as sub-human. Or gay people, or Jewish people, or in rare cases, everybody except themselves.

    You can argue with C, because their opinion is usually not well formed enough to make them immune to developing a cohesive point of view on the subject. It is to this group that I remind them that my ancestor died because of discrimination. The only reputable hospital he could get to for an emergency appendectomy refused to treat him because he was a Jew. He went to the only hospital that would treat Jews and they "accidentally" killed him. I put that in quotations because they killed a lot of people they were trying to save. Just business as usual.

    So many people are mistaken about the effects of discrimination. Multiple posts have referred to the effects of discrimination as being merely "offensive," implying that the only reason we have these laws are so that minorities won't be upset about not being served. No, discrimination would literally destroy lives. So believe whatever you want, but remember that when you argue that we should do away with anti-discrimination laws, you're advocating for a system under which people are allowed to die when they would be saved if they were white, or christian, or straight. Is that a system you'd call just?
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