View Poll Results: What's More Important - the "Right" to Discriminate, or Freedom From Discrimination?

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  • The Right to Discriminate

    38 33.04%
  • Freedom From Discrimination

    77 66.96%
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Thread: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discrimination?

  1. #1001
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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    The backhanded point I was trying to make is that there have always been, and will always be those who are perceived by society as less than themselves. It's true of every society. It's not something you can fix, and it's not necessarily even a bad thing. If a society shuns an asshole, well there's a lesson to be had in that.
    No kidding, but we can prevent people from being shunned from doing everyday tasks because someone doesn't like them.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    So the Jim Crow era is just fine to you?
    There is a good example of an illogical conclusion to my statement.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    The laws may be different, but the end effect is the same. A racist business refuses to serve blacks, and blacks will come in and sit at the counter and demand to be served - just like they did in the Civil Right struggle. The business will call the cops...and the cops - being forced to enforce the law - will physically remove the blacks...

    ...which means we now have government-enforced racism. Back to Jim Crow.

    Is that really the America you want to see?
    No. The end effect is not the same. You do not have the right to be on private property if the owner does not want you to be there. Forcing your will on someone regarding their own property is not a recipe for civil society. Do you really want to see a society where I can demand that you trade with someone you hate? As if that's going to cure hatred...

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Here's the problem: If business A can tell blacks "I refuse to serve you because you're black", what will happen? Just like in the Civil Rights struggle, the blacks WILL sit at the counter (with reporters recording the whole thing) demanding to be served. The cops will be called by the business, and the cops will be forced to enforce the law and physically remove the blacks...

    ...at which time we have government-enforced racism.
    That would be government enforced property rights.

    Not only that, but some whites-only businesses will succeed, particularly Down South. Once those succeed, some blacks will get ticked off (and rightly so), and so they will retaliate by opening blacks-only businesses...at which point the racist whites will feel justified by saying, "See - it was those racist blacks all along!" And more whites-only businesses will open and succeed, and so will more blacks-only businesses...

    ...and the whole vicious circle spirals downhill to a market-enforced Jim Crow era.

    You might think it's not right to force someone to do business with someone else based on race...but first think carefully as the effect that libertarian view would have on our society as a whole. Is that really the kind of America you want to see?
    I don't think the scenario you paint would happen. But nevertheless, no individual has the right to violate (or threaten to violate) the body or property of his fellow man in order to coerce him into engaging in trade with someone against his will.

    What you are condoning (violating another person's body or property without the right to do so) is unjust. One cannot achieve justice by employing unjust means.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    True. We are speaking freedom of expression of an opinion. I dislike the opinion and the means of expression. I also think that in a half way healthy community or country it will do more harm to bar this freedom than the hurt it causes. Again, it is discrimination by the individual not the state I am talking about. If it were the state we are speaking about something else.
    The only argument I could see would be a requirement that businesses must supply the public without exception. But that can run into problems as well.
    But if the state is forced to enforce a business' "right" to refuse service to those of a different color/ethnicity/religion, then it becomes state-enforced.

    Look, my whole point is that while YES, we can refuse to do business with someone if, say, that person can't pay, or if that person's naked, or if that person's a felon, or if that person's unable to reasonably decide for himself or herself...

    ...but it's flat wrong (and VERY destructive to society as a whole) to be able to refuse to do business with someone on the basis of how they were born.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    So the Jim Crow era is just fine to you?
    those laws are passed by governments, and that's illegal,governments cannot discriminate by constitutional law.

    constitutional law does not apply to the people ,it applies to government only, ....no federal law, or state law is above the rights of a citizen.

    the bill of rights restricts the federal government and states from taking any action which violates.... right to property

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    Seen "12 Years a Slave" yet?
    Yes. There is most definitely a lesson to be learned in that movie. These white wealthy men felt it was there right to treat people like property. People are not property and should not be treated as such. What exactly is your point?

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    SAID IT BEFORE:

    nothing can be a right, if it lays a cost or burden, on a fellow citizen.
    And you don't think it doesn't place a burden on a person if they are forbidden to conduct business due to another person's prejudices?

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Your HOUSE is not a BUSINESS that is open to the PUBLIC.

    You can do or say whatever the heck you want inside your HOUSE. But in a business open to the public? No.
    Open to the public does not equal public. Besides, the philosophy holds for both if you are going to be consistent.

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    Re: Which Is More Important? The Right to Discriminate, or Freedom from Discriminati

    Quote Originally Posted by FederalRepublic View Post
    No. The end effect is not the same. You do not have the right to be on private property if the owner does not want you to be there. Forcing your will on someone regarding their own property is not a recipe for civil society. Do you really want to see a society where I can demand that you trade with someone you hate? As if that's going to cure hatred...
    Is your HOUSE open to the PUBLIC? No. Is your BUSINESS open to the PUBLIC? Except for private clubs, YES. It might be a person's private property, but a person's business is open to the public, while that person's house is private. Do you see the difference? Yes, you do.

    How many people here have lived in a town where there was a business with a whites-only entrance? As far as I can tell, only me. And that town did have a whites-only private club. I really don't want to see America to go back to days like that.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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