View Poll Results: Has free trade been good for the United States

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  • Yes

    13 39.39%
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Thread: Has free trade been good for the United States?

  1. #31
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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Besides the jobs going to those countries and Americans having to rely on and be at the mercy for other countries to produce goods we need, those American dollars are going towards increasing and strengthening that country's military..Look at China for example their military is growing stronger everyday because of sell out companies outsourcing to China.What the **** did the traitors in office think China was going to do with all that extra revenue,give it to the poor in their country?
    That is a very good point, and I left that out on purpose. I'm glad you brought that up because it is very important.

  2. #32
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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Let's ignore the obstacles for enacting the tariffs into law. What I'm saying is that technology would replace workers anyway and at least we would not be sending money to places like China. Not only that, but I think at a certain point, technology will reach it's limit. It requires energy and the supply is finite. It ruins the environment and one day that will ruin into it's upper limit as well.



    If the government used the money for educating people properly and creating the infrastructure for a sustainable economy, e.g. renewable sources of energy and localized, environment friendly farming that doesn't rely on huge transport costs, it would be well worth the investment.
    i don't disagree, and have argued for the same thing repeatedly on this site. however, i'm pessimistic that we can bring back well paying private sector manufacturing jobs. those in charge of making things pretty much only care about two aspects of it :

    1. growth

    2. profit

    that's why i'm for more public projects and public / private partnerships. but i'm all for infrastructure and replacing our energy model / significantly upgrading the electrical grid.

  3. #33
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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    What is more disturbing than the actual money is that corporations have given technology transfers to the Chinese just to take advantage of the cheap labor and low environmental regulations. For example, GE provided the Chinese government with their jet engine technology in order that they could produce appliances in China and have access to the Chinese market.

    I consider such acts by American corporations to be treason.
    I didn't get into the details, but this was rather interesting

    Washingtonpost.com: Key Stories on Chinese Missile Allegations

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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    those in charge of making things pretty much only care about two aspects of it :

    1. growth

    2. profit
    That's the problem, proper leadership. That's were democracy is supposed to kick in and people put in the right leaders in place to enact change. But we don't educate people properly so they are easily deceived by propaganda.

    And maybe that's why we are not educating people properly. Perhaps the powerful want people to be ignorant so that they can be exploited. Part of me does not want to accept that, but maybe it's the case. I actually heard one very popular talk radio host say one time: "why are we teaching people political science anyway?" The point was that it was making people to "uppity."

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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That's the problem, proper leadership. That's were democracy is supposed to kick in and people put in the right leaders in place to enact change. But we don't educate people properly so they are easily deceived by propaganda.

    And maybe that's why we are not educating people properly. Perhaps the powerful want people to be ignorant so that they can be exploited. Part of me does not want to accept that, but maybe it's the case. I actually heard one very popular talk radio host say one time: "why are we teaching people political science anyway?" The point was that it was making people to "uppity."
    it's less a nefarious conspiracy than it is neglect. those who are in power are just interested in other things. also, they don't really prioritize education except as a political issue.

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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    it's less a nefarious conspiracy than it is neglect. those who are in power are just interested in other things. also, they don't really prioritize education except as a political issue.
    Perhaps. Then my response is that is also the result of ignorance. And that brings things back to square one, why are people so ignorant? It is the result of the influence of materialism. Materialism makes people ignorant, because it is based on ignorance.

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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Perhaps. Then my response is that is also the result of ignorance. And that brings things back to square one, why are people so ignorant? It is the result of the influence of materialism. Materialism makes people ignorant, because it is based on ignorance.
    mostly, it's confirmation bias. many of us think that we have it figured out, and we search out evidence that reinforces our views in favor of evidence that might challenge these views. and there's always some "other" to rail against. i am far from perfectly objective, myself. what we need is to brainstorm without namecalling and categorizing. i struggle with this like anyone else, because it's difficult when the primary reaction is visceral rather than logical.

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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Can you point to some reference that supports your assertion that economists regularly recognize that free trade benefits only a few?
    I said that economists regularly recognize that free trade can benefit only a few. To restate in a more words: In some cases free trade can result in benefiting only the few, while in other cases it can result in benefiting the majority.

    You asked for a link, and I will give you one. However, I have a degree in business, and the school I attended specialized in economics. We had excellent economics instruction, and I excelled in economics. What I have stated above is one of the many aspects we were taught about free trade in certain circumstances. However, I can't stand it when people won't provide a link on here, so as I have said I have found a very good article to share. It is by an economist. Hopefully it will help readers to think through the issues for themselves.

    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ype=blogs&_r=0

    Here is one quote that I thought was interesting: "Many economists continue to believe that increased foreign trade is a rising tide that will eventually lift all boats." I sometimes laugh heartily when economists coldly calculate the impact of economics on regular people. Notice the weasel word 'eventually' in that sentence. With that word in the sentence, I actually believe that the sentence is true in probably 100% of cases. But 'eventually' can be a significant amount of time. In bad situations it can be 50 or more years. And things can really suck pretty damn bad, and get worse for a while, for a significant portion of a people. But, it always immediately benefits wealthy people. In such cases, free trade should hardly be called good economic policy, whatever the eventual benefits.

    I became a computer programmer, because I knew that the career would likely ride out the tides that I knew were coming to our middle classes. Now those tides have arrived, and I have been doing dandy while others struggle. It is easy for me to take some solace on behalf of those others in the fact that those tides will eventually lift all boats. But I would nevertheless sorely hate to be one of them. And I could be, should conditions change and my strategy ultimately fail.

    The American people have been sold a load of bull**** about the way this whole globalization deal was going to work out for them. It was largely sold to them through manipulative storytelling based on oversimplified views of the way economics works.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  9. #39
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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    mostly, it's confirmation bias. many of us think that we have it figured out, and we search out evidence that reinforces our views in favor of evidence that might challenge these views. and there's always some "other" to rail against. i am far from perfectly objective, myself. what we need is to brainstorm without namecalling and categorizing. i struggle with this like anyone else, because it's difficult when the primary reaction is visceral rather than logical.
    Well I hope I'm not being misunderstood here because I am just as much a victim as everyone else. But sometimes you have to call a spade what it is otherwise there is no way forward. One can try to dispute the notion that there is a living being who is the observer, that is constrained in knowledge through a particular set of senses from which it is receiving input from the environment, and a mind through which it is interpreting that input, but it will remain so. Just like a computer has devices through which it receives input, the living being is receiving input from it's senses. And just as a computer needs an operating system and programs through which the input is received and interpreted, the living being has a mind that is receiving the input and interpreting it as good, bad, important, not important, etc. When the living being is too overwhelmed from input from it's senses, say for instance in the experience of hunger or sex impulse, it's knowledge becomes restricted. At that time it has the tendency to focus on obtaining what will satisfy it's senses and tuning out everything else. Indeed persons under such influence can forget everything about right or wrong, as what becomes right is what will satisfy that need. Lying, stealing, killing can all become means to the end. Such a distortion of priorities is the result of a mind focused on material objects, i.e. materialism. I really don't mean to be calling names, but that is the dilemma.
    Last edited by MildSteel; 04-22-14 at 11:24 PM.

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    Re: Has free trade been good for the United States?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    So the question is, has free trade been good for the United States?
    It could be but we don't like it. America is having trouble adjusting to our new status as second, third, fourth or fifth place in the world.

    There has always been free trade whether we like it or not. You can make laws but people will break them when it comes to making money. America is about to see a big boom again once we accept our different role(s) in the world economy.

    We'll be fine. Free Trade is bad in the short run. For example: If I have the only grocery store in town and someone opens a new grocery store next door, that would be very bad for the grocery store owner but very good for the community.

    The temporary losers will always cry foul because they enjoy being in an advantaged position. What the temporary loser doesn't realize is that competition allows the grocery to become even better and better. There is no room for mediocre service or mediocre quality when there is competetion.

    Free Trade is great for the United States. We just have to give it time to ride the bumpy waves of transition.

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