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Was the rancher in nevada wrong about not paying for grazing to the gov?

was the rancher right or wong

  • Total voters
    38
Joby said:
Not if they are paying their taxes and not making their livelihood stealing from the Government. So no, not at all.
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They came across the border illegally. They don't pay taxes and they get free medical and food stamps.

Are they Freeloaders yet?
 
Ray410 said:
They came across the border illegally. They don't pay taxes and they get free medical and food stamps.

Are they Freeloaders yet?
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Contrary to popular opinion, the IRS does not **** around, and when workers are not paying taxes the situation does not usually last long.

There is an old saying: Nothing is guaranteed but death and taxes.

How they pay

Income Tax

Every time you receive a paycheck, you probably notice that something is missing. That’s because your employer automatically withholds federal, state, and local income taxes and Social Security and Medicare taxes. Immigrants also have money automatically deducted directly from their paychecks —even those who are here illegally. But how? Well, the Social Security Administration estimates that 75% of undocumented immigrants are actually on formal payrolls and are paid by check just like anyone else. They get on the payroll by using fake or fraudulent social security numbers or social security numbers of the deceased, which are easily available from counterfeiters for a couple hundred dollars. A growing number of undocumented immigrants now file their income taxes using Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers (ITINs). ITINs are issued by the IRS for filing purposes only and do not provide permission to work. According to the most recent estimates, at least 3 million unauthorized immigrants filed income taxes using ITINs in 2009. (NOTE: the IRS does not report undocumented immigrants to the Department of Homeland Security.)

Sales Tax

Every time you buy something, you pay sales tax. That money goes to state and local governments. Staying at a hotel or renting a car, you pay state and local taxes. If you fill up your gas tank, you automatically pay state and federal gasoline taxes. If you buy liquor or cigarettes, you automatically pay various local, state, and federal excise taxes. Immigrants—legal and undocumented—all buy things, and thus pay these taxes as part of their purchase.

Property Tax

Local governments also collect property taxes, which are a percentage of the value of one’s home and fund services like schools, certain medical services, and police and fire stations. Immigrants—legal and unauthorized—pay these taxes directly if they own a home, or indirectly if they rent (clearly, landlords factor property taxes into rent).
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You can paint them as a boogeyman all you want. They aren't the ones ****ing the middle class.

http://roygermano.com/2011/02/28/do-illegal-immigrants-pay-taxes/
 
Double post, but I'll share an excellent video explaining the "extinguishing" doctrine on federal land once new states became admitted.

 
SouthernDemocrat said:
1. The issue of federal land being transferred to a state upon that state being granted statehood is adjudicated in congress at the time statehood is granted.


2. If the rancher has an issue with the federal government owning 80% of the land in Nevada, then he is free to petition his representatives to change that or support candidates that share his view. However, most likely the land being desert has little value, and the state does not want much of it because it would lose money on it. That is why a lot of land is in BLM hands rather than state or private hands. The BLM loses money managing it, grazing and usage fees only partially offset that. Usually the state doesn't want it because the state doesn't want to lose money on it.

3. Perhaps the reason why he is the only rancher left out there is because he is grazing his cattle in a desert and competing with ranchers in the plains and Midwest that can raise far more cattle, for less expense, on less land because that land is more suitable for agricultural purposes.
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The federal government may hold territories and make rules regarding their management, however WITHIN the states the federal government has limited power:

"To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;"

So the land it either territory, or it isn't, and it was extinguished as state land. And if it isn't territory, the federal government must have received persmission from the state legislature to purchase and control state property.

These sites have good information on this understanding:

Resolution Demanding that Congress Convey Title of Federal Public Lands to the States - ALEC - American Legislative Exchange Council

LOFTI: Who actually "owns" America's land? A deeper look at the Bundy Ranch crisis | Ben Swann Truth In Media
 
He should follow the law. There's a way to combat the law if he feels it's wrongful. If he went that route and lost, then he needs to suck it up or suck up that the government will take action to enforce the law. He's in the wrong in that regard.

Joby said:
Not if they are paying their taxes and not making their livelihood stealing from the Government. So no, not at all.
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To my understanding, this man isn't avoiding ALL taxes just some, nor is his livelihood being made specifically from stealing from the government (Though that is part of it).

Similarly, illegals...unless they've stolen the SSN of another person....are also avoiding at least SOME taxes, and thus making at least part of their livelihood by stealing from the government.

It's funny how some people, on both sides, seem to care about the "rule of law" only when it suits them.
 
I wish we had all the information.
The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934, says the Government can administer the land use.
The Secretary of the Interior is authorized to issue or cause to be issued permits to graze livestock on such grazing districts to such bona fide settlers, residents, and other stock owners as under his rules and regulations are entitled to participate in the use of the range, upon the payment annually of reasonable fees in each case to be fixed or determined from time to time in accordance with governing law.
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Federal Grazing Fee
The Federal grazing fee, which applies to Federal lands in 16 Western states on public lands managed by the BLM and the U.S. Forest Service, is adjusted annually and is calculated by using a formula originally set by Congress in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978. Under this formula, as modified and extended by a presidential Executive Order issued in 1986, the grazing fee cannot fall below $1.35 per animal unit month (AUM); also, any fee increase or decrease cannot exceed 25 percent of the previous year’s level. (An AUM is the amount of forage needed to sustain one cow and her calf, one horse, or five sheep or goats for a month.) The grazing fee for 2014 is $1.35 per AUM, the same level as it was in 2013.

The Federal grazing fee is computed by using a 1966 base value of $1.23 per AUM for livestock grazing on public lands in Western states. The figure is then adjusted each year according to three factors – current private grazing land lease rates, beef cattle prices, and the cost of livestock production. In effect, the fee rises, falls, or stays the same based on market conditions, with livestock operators paying more when conditions are better and less when conditions have declined.
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So The government started charging in 1966, the rate went up to $1.35 in 1986, and is still there.
I wonder if the BLM issued the rancher a new permit, or told him he could not renew, 20 years ago?
From the original article,
“For more than two decades, cattle have been grazed illegally on public lands in northeast Clark County,” the BLM said in a statement. “BLM and (the National Park Service) have made repeated attempts to resolve this matter administratively and judicially. Impoundment of cattle illegally grazing on public lands is an option of last resort.”
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So in 1994, the BLM told this rancher, whose family had been using this land for over 100 years, to stop
using the land, no new permit would be issued.
His choice was to shut down his business, or allow his cows to keep grazing without a permit.
All of the other ranchers in the area have shut down operations, (because they have no way to graze their cattle.)
Most of us drive to work, we drive on public roads.
Using these roads require us to buy permits to take our vehicles on said public roads.
Suppose one day the Government said, we will no longer issue you a permit for your car!
You say how am I supposed to go to my job? not our problem is the response.
A better analogy might be truckers who use the roads a lot, and pay special road use fees.
The point is the power to tax (and charge fees) is the power to destroy,
Sometimes our Government exercises the destroy option, and the people whose lives
are destroyed, are likely not happy.
 
ChezC3 said:
It as litigated in the wrong court. How are you gonna have a Federal judge rule on a case where the plaintiff is the Federal government?

Nah, no conflict of interest there...

It should have been decided in a State court.
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...what? That is like... why we have a Federal Court system... to rule on Federal law. Your criticism would breakdown our entire legal system. How can a municipal judge fairly adjudge any case that the town or county brings--he's part of that layer of government! Silly.
 
Sherman123 said:
...what? That is like... why we have a Federal Court system... to rule on Federal law. Your criticism would breakdown our entire legal system. How can a municipal judge fairly adjudge any case that the town or county brings--he's part of that layer of government! Silly.
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The Federal Court System, is like, not the only one who rules on Federal Law...

Cases in Federal and State Courts

No my criticism wouldn't break down the entire legal system. My criticism was a reduced argument. One that would have been elaborated on if children learned to mind their manners.

Good day!
 
Yes, he was wrong. You can't use someone else's land without paying for it unless they allow you to.
 
With all the billions that the Kochs and Adelson are throwing at hit ads against DEM Senators,
you'd think they could toss a billion at Bundy and keep paying his welfare.

Adelson after all threw millions at his ex-attorney Shelly Berkley to help elect Sen. Dean Heller.
In a time of cooperation, I could tell you of some good things with Sen. Heller .
ChezC3 said:
The Federal Court System, is like, not the only one who rules on Federal Law...
Cases in Federal and State Courts
No my criticism wouldn't break down the entire legal system. My criticism was a reduced argument.
One that would have been elaborated on if children learned to mind their manners.
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If Bundy wants to pay Nevada, he pays $12 a head per year versus $1.35 a head to the USA .
 
tecoyah said:
And...now he has a bunch of tea party cowboys trying to help him continue doing so.
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All these idiot yahoo's on their horse waving their flags as if they are true patriots makes me :roll: and :lol: at the same time... a difficult feat.
 
ChezC3 said:
It as litigated in the wrong court. How are you gonna have a Federal judge rule on a case where the plaintiff is the Federal government?

Nah, no conflict of interest there...

It should have been decided in a State court.
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They did pretty well with regards to Brown v Board of Education 1954. There are many other positive examples as well...
 
The militia sniper and the other militia cowards who closed I-15 and threatened to put women in front of them have
severely damaged the brand of sane 2nd amendmenters.

You don't notice the National GOP on this, just Sean Hannity.
On dp, you don't see the usual gun passionists defending Bundy.
This is still as sane a board as I can find .
Bodhisattva said:
All these idiot yahoo's on their horse waving their flags as if they are true patriots makes me :roll: and :lol: at the same time... a difficult feat.
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ChezC3 said:
No, it is not plain stupid. Calling that which you disagree with stupid is childish. Grow the F up...
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It isn't stupid but it is ignorant in a naïve kind of way... not understanding history.
 
NIMBY said:
The militia sniper and the other militia cowards who closed I-15 and threatened to put women in front of them have
severely damaged the brand of sane 2nd amendmenters.

You don't notice the National GOP on this, just Sean Hannity.
On dp, you don't see the usual gun passionists defending Bundy.
This is still as sane a board as I can find .
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The government has completely over reacted as well... both sides are acting like idiots.
 
The USA made mistakes.
If I had been dealing with this scofflaw for 20 years, I probably would have also.
Bodhisattva said:
The government has completely over reacted as well... both sides are acting like idiots.
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Since he wants to pay Nevada, let him pay $12 a head instead of $1.35.
Midwest farmers and ranchers are fed up with this guy making their brand look like herd manure .
 
kinda different when they are white you know.... lol
 
yup I see them with food stamps and they don't pay as much taxes as I do because they deal only with cash in their business... no paper trail
 
good point
 
they get food stamps if they have children here (born here) sorry see it every day at store....
 
so you are saying the 75 percent illegals have a fake ssn to get a payroll check from a job ??? that would be thousands of fake ssn ..any computer the gov owns could spot those fake ssn by cross referring most of the one I see get paid cash ...I live in l.a.
 
plutonium said:
Was the rancher with the cattle right or wrong about paying the gov. for grazing rights on government land? .was he a freeloader.... the rest of us pay to use the streets ,roads, fire dept parks etc. with taxes this land belongs to the people of the united states it does not belong to him so he should pay us to use it/ graze cattle
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He is a freeloader. He doesn't own the land in question.He refused to pay rent.If the government wants to turn it into a turtle preserve, a strip club, lease it to the Chinese or what ever then it is not Bundy's business because he stopped paying rent.
 
Bundy is on the wrong side of the law... but i would acquit him if I was on the jury.
I don't support the law, I feel the BLM is corrupt beyond repair, and the whole " that is our land, he owes us rent" argument is nonsense.

BLM enforcement is up to the highest bidder, always has been.
if there was no one in the wings trying to get that land, the BLM wouldn't ever touch the guy.... i don't know about other places, but that's been proven time and time again in Nevada.

the BLM is trying to run over the guy to make way for developers.... he is, however, making it easy for them to do so by not paying his tribute to the Gods ( which does not go to maintaining or imp[roving the the land, btw.. nor does it go to you and me)... but that doesn't change the fact he's in the way and some folks in government want him gone.
 
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