View Poll Results: Are Neocons A Threat To World Peace?

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Thread: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

  1. #261
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    It's not a theory. It was the US that spearheaded the efforts to overthrow Yanukovych after he rejected the EU association agreement. The Assistant Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland directly fomented protest in the streets. She directly threatened the powerful Akhmetov, who controlled a powerful bloc in Parliament of about 45 MPs, that if he didn't put pressure on Yanukovych he would be exposed. She also directly threatened Yanukovych right after passing out food to protesters. The problem is that there are many people in Ukraine that do not want to be a part of the EU. We should have left that up for their leaders to decide. If we don't like the leaders, wait until the next election.



    We went out of our way in Ukraine.
    One of the most abused notions in human history is that you can somehow "forment" protest.

    The tendency of human beings is to be inert and not to do anything. You can't make them do something unless they really want to do it. If the United States has established, funded, and is personally supervising grassroots networks (through C.I.A. agents or other officials) to create protest or an illusion of protest, I'll acknowledge your claim. But making a handful of inflammatory remarks and leaking information about high up political wheeling and dealing doesn't pass muster. That's throwing a few matches into an oil drum that is already burning.

    More importantly, the line between who wants to be part of the Russian Federation and who wants to be part of the European Union is drawn mostly between ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians, who make up about 17% and 78% of the population respectively. But just as the political leadership in Washington is disconnected from the voice of the common man, the leadership in Kiev tends to follow its own establishment logic. Namely, that Russia is the regional power, not Europe, and that deference must be given for Ukraine to be safe (and for the political leadership to remain rich with Russian economic and political connections).

    In conventional elections, it would take decades or hundreds of years to bring the leadership into line with what the people want.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 04-18-14 at 12:41 PM.
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  2. #262
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    What is good about the US having to go to war with Russia over Ukraine?
    My intended point wasn't about 'going to war over the Ukraine'. I meant (though my post is obviously faulty) that there's good and bad points about sending troops to the Ukraine just as we have for South Korea. The presence of our troops would make Russia think twice, though one can imagine all the inflammatory rhetoric and diplomatic posturing Putin (and Obama's opponents here) would use the moment our troops touched down in the Ukraine. Such a move would make war in the Ukraine less likely - and that's good...but if war did happen, that same move would make a disastrous escalation more likely.
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  3. #263
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    One of the most abused notions in human history is that you can somehow "forment" protest.
    We can certainly 'foment' protest and in fact it's done all the time.

  4. #264
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    We can certainly 'foment' protest and in fact it's done all the time.
    To a degree, but aside from the thing I said in my post, formentation is a smokescreen that removes responsibility for acting from the people doing the protesting. Even when we have huge networks of personnel employed to do some legwork on the civil discontent front, I would still say the population itself bears the main portion of the responsibility for their actions.
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    One of the most abused notions in human history is that you can somehow "forment" protest.
    It is possible to foment protest. This can very easily be seen when countries fall on severe economic hardship and ultra nationalists groups step in to fill a need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The tendency of human beings is to be inert and not to do anything.
    No it isn't. As a matter of fact one cannot refrain from doing something, not even for a moment, even if it's no more than engagement on the mental platform.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    You can't make them do something unless they really want to do it.
    First of all, the statement as worded is meaningless. But if you are saying that a person cannot be made to do something that they already want to do a priori, that is possible also. I don't want to go to work, but I do it because of the money. So money is one way. It can be done through deception. Usually in national elections in the US, a majority of the effort is spent trying to convince voters who have not decided to vote for a particular candidate. Not only that but voters can be made to change their minds through clever propaganda. Dukakis was leading in the presidential polling in 1988, but the Willie Horton ads help change all that. So your notion is not true, no matter how you look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    If the United States has established, funded, and is personally supervising grassroots networks (through C.I.A. agents or other officials) to create protest or an illusion of protest, I'll acknowledge your claim. But making a handful of inflammatory remarks and leaking information about high up political wheeling and dealing doesn't pass muster. That's throwing a few matches into an oil drum that is already burning.
    I don't know where you have been, but yes the US does indeed support grassroot protest against Putin and other world leaders. For example, consider Garry Kasparov, perhaps you have heard of him.

    In 1991, Kasparov received the Keeper of the Flame award from the Center for Security Policy (a US think tank) for his contributions "to the defence of the United States and American values around the world"
    In April 2007, it was asserted that Kasparov was a board member of the National Security Advisory Council of Center for Security Policy, a "non-profit, non-partisan national security organization [in Washington, DC] that specializes in identifying policies, actions, and resource needs that are vital to American security". Kasparov confirmed this and added that he was removed shortly after he became aware of it. He noted that he did not know about the membership and suggested he was included in the board by accident because he received the 1991 Keeper of the Flame award from this organization. But Kasparov maintained his association with the leadership by giving speeches at think tanks such as the Hoover Institution
    Please note that this council has neocon intellectuals as it's members.

    As to what Kasporov thinks about Putin, here's an excerpt from a piece that Kasparov wrote

    From Caracas to Moscow to Pyongyang, everyone follows their own agenda while ignoring President Bush and the U.N. Here in Russia, for example, Vladimir Putin gets Mr. Bush's endorsement for membership to the World Trade Organization while selling advanced air defense missile systems to Iran and imposing sanctions on Georgia, itself a WTO member. WTO membership is not going to benefit ordinary Russians, but it will provide more cover for Mr. Putin and his gang of oligarchs to continue to loot the country and launder the money abroad with no resistance from a distracted, discredited and enfeebled West.
    And please note this

    After his retirement from chess in 2005, Kasparov turned to politics and created the United Civil Front, a social movement whose main goal is to "work to preserve electoral democracy in Russia".[53] He has vowed to "restore democracy" to Russia by toppling the President of Russia Vladimir Putin, of whom he is an outspoken critic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    More importantly, the line between who wants to be part of the Russian Federation and who wants to be part of the European Union is drawn mostly between ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians, who make up about 17% and 78% of the population respectively.
    Here you just don't know what you are talking about and have simply fabricated a tale. First of all, not all "ethnic Ukrainians" want to be a part of the EU. Anyone who has been following recent events in Ukraine knows that some right wing Ukrainian groups who were influential in the Maidan protests have openly said that they do not want to have anything to do with the EU. Not only that, but when you look at some of the polls, you find the following:

    Ukraine is split practically 50/50 over the accession to the European Union or the Customs Union. Europe is favored by 39 percent of Ukrainians, and 37 percent prefer the Customs Union, said the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology.
    https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...ns-332470.html

  6. #266
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    My intended point wasn't about 'going to war over the Ukraine'. I meant (though my post is obviously faulty) that there's good and bad points about sending troops to the Ukraine just as we have for South Korea. The presence of our troops would make Russia think twice, though one can imagine all the inflammatory rhetoric and diplomatic posturing Putin (and Obama's opponents here) would use the moment our troops touched down in the Ukraine. Such a move would make war in the Ukraine less likely - and that's good...but if war did happen, that same move would make a disastrous escalation more likely.
    The point is that if we are going to advocate NATO membership for Ukraine, we should be prepared to go to war with Russia over Ukraine. And Ukraine is just not a vital interest such that a war with Russia would be justified.

  7. #267
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The point is that if we are going to advocate NATO membership for Ukraine, we should be prepared to go to war with Russia over Ukraine. And Ukraine is just not a vital interest such that a war with Russia would be justified.
    That's true, too. That situation already exists for other nations already on Russia's borders, too.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    That's true, too. That situation already exists for other nations already on Russia's borders, too.
    That is true and is a concern. However the power of the Russian navy is based in Crimea and Russian depends on Ukraine for some critical military equipment such as parts for it's ICBMs. That makes Ukraine a very vital interest for Russia, unlike those countries.

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Neocons appear to be characterized by a type of paranoia that causes them to conjure up imagined threats that do not exist. Consider this from Robert Kagan and William Kristol

    No one has been paying much attention to Iraq lately. But that unfolding Clinton administration disaster is certain to rear its head again over the next year. Right now Saddam Hussein is busy building his weapons of mass destruction, unencumbered by international inspectors, unchallenged by a domestic opposition that the Clinton administration, despite paying lip service to the Iraq Liberation Act, refuses to support, and unharmed by the sporadic attacks which the United States has been carrying out in the no-fly zones. The sanctions regime is tottering. International support for the "containment" of Saddam is evaporating. And the Clinton administration does not even pretend to have an answer.
    It turns out, there were no weapons of mass destruction, but the neocons were sure successful in scaring the hell out of everyone that there were. Enough that we went on a ignorant witch hunt and wasted hundreds of billions of dollars to preempt the threat of what Cheney called a "mushroom cloud."

    It mindless paranoia.

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Neocons appear to be characterized by a type of paranoia that causes them to conjure up imagined threats that do not exist. Consider this from Robert Kagan and William Kristol
    It turns out, there were no weapons of mass destruction, but the neocons were sure successful in scaring the hell out of everyone that there were. Enough that we went on a ignorant witch hunt and wasted hundreds of billions of dollars to preempt the threat of what Cheney called a "mushroom cloud." It mindless paranoia.
    Here's another one of those damned war mongering neo-cons! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS9y5t0tR0

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