View Poll Results: Are Neocons A Threat To World Peace?

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    44 61.11%
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Thread: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

  1. #251
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And there's a lot that can be said - both good and bad - about that particular idea.
    What is good about the US having to go to war with Russia over Ukraine?

  2. #252
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Prominent neocon Paul Wolfowitz is famous for the following policy objectives for the US



    And



    Here it is clearly stated that the most important goal is to contain Russia. Furthermore the goal is to prevent any challenge to the leadership role of the US on the global stage.

    Do such policies put the US on a collision course with the rest of the world? Naturally everyone will not feel the way we do on certain issues and thus there will be challenges to US leadership.

    Are the neocons therefore a threat to world peace?
    ... humanity is a threat to world peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    What is good about the US having to go to war with Russia over Ukraine?
    Russia-Ukraine relations aren't the only example of their kind in the world. There are plenty of other countries who can resolve regional disputes revolving around migration and resources by military force. It encourages arms build-ups, discourages economic and cultural integration or understanding (and therefore undermines human advancement), and makes every small country feel as though they need to have a nuclear arsenal to ward away off giants like Russia because countries like the United States and the European Union can't be counted on to defend them.

    Military relations can stay rational when a few big actors have nuclear weapons, but 100+ countries with that kind of capability increases arithmetically the odds of a regional nuclear war, the destructiveness of which has globe spanning consequences on the environment, economy, and political relations, even if it remains localized.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 04-18-14 at 11:26 AM.
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  3. #253
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    ... humanity is a threat to world peace.
    That is when humanity is poisoned by ideology created by people who do not fully understand what they are doing. For instance, the notion that it is imperative that the US preempt the rise of rival powers.

  4. #254
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    .
    Russia-Ukraine relations aren't the only example of their kind in the world. There are plenty of other countries who can resolve regional disputes revolving around migration and resources by military force. It encourages arms build-ups, discourages economic growth and production, and makes every small country feel as though they need to have a nuclear arsenal to ward away off giants like Russia because countries like the United States and the European Union can't be counted on to defend them.

    Military relations can stay rational when a few big actors have nuclear weapons, but 100+ countries with that kind of capability increases arithmetically the odds of a regional nuclear war, the destructiveness of which globe spanning consequences on the environment, economy, and political relations, even if it remains localized.
    So as a result of that, do you feel that the Ukraine should be admitted into NATO and that the US should be prepared to go to war with Russia over Ukraine?

  5. #255
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    So as a result of that, do you feel that the Ukraine should be admitted into NATO and that the US should be prepared to go to war with Russia over Ukraine?
    Let's say that Ukraine moved at a faster pace than the West in an effort to have a clean break with Russia, and Russia moved faster than the West to stop that from happening.

    In general, the rule of the Cold War was the the guy who seizes the initiative can't be directly challenged because it would result in thermonuclear war. So no, we shouldn't go to war with Russia over Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That is when humanity is poisoned by ideology created by people who do not fully understand what they are doing. For instance, the notion that it is imperative that the US preempt the rise of rival powers.
    If we could, we should. As far as historical superpowers go, the United States is by far the most benign.

    We've made too many mistakes though. Too much shortsightedness.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 04-18-14 at 11:33 AM.
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Let's say that Ukraine moved at a faster pace than the West in an effort to have a clean break with Russia, and Russia moved faster than the West to stop that from happening.

    In general, the rule of the Cold War was the the guy who seizes the initiative can't be directly challenged because it would result in thermonuclear war. So no, we shouldn't go to war with Russia over Ukraine
    I don't think what you said with regards to Ukraine moving at a faster pace to break with Russia is accurate. I think the US made up it's mind that they would break Ukraine from Russia and Russia did not go along with the scheme.

  7. #257
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    If we could, we should. As far as historical superpowers go, the United States is by far the most benign.

    We've made too many mistakes though. Too much shortsightedness.
    I don't agree with you. We should preempt the rise of rival powers only when they pose a clear and present danger to our vital interests. Otherwise, we will be in a state of perpetual war. Over and above that, you may see the US as benign, but others may not. Not only that it's not necessarily true.

  8. #258
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I don't agree with you. We should preempt the rise of rival powers only when they pose a clear and present danger to our vital interests. Otherwise, we will be in a state of perpetual war. Over and above that, you may see the US as benign, but others may not. Not only that it's not necessarily true.
    No, not necessarily, but it usually it is. Look at the difference between West Germany and East Germany or North Korea and South Korea. Most countries who have established a relationship to the United States have improved through that relationship. I don't see that the same thing could be said of the former Soviet bloc.

    The United States does involve itself in morally ambiguous events -- like the Iran-Iraq War -- and occasionally does vile things, but usually there is a broader context that most people don't consider. The United States prefers doing business with egalitarian democracies when possible, but sometimes the realities of power require us to establish diplomatic, cultural, and economic channels with countries that fall short of the ideals.

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I don't think what you said with regards to Ukraine moving at a faster pace to break with Russia is accurate. I think the US made up it's mind that they would break Ukraine from Russia and Russia did not go along with the scheme.
    Nice theory, but the United States doesn't have nearly that level of interest or control in that part of the world. It's the Ukrainians who are interested in us, or rather, Western Europe first and us second. They want to draw from the water of the West's economic resources, richer and more accessible than Russia's, to develop their own society. Our political structures are more attractive than Russia's autocracy and Soviet heritage, which countries like Ukraine still resent.

    The United States wouldn't mind acquiring them in our sphere of influence for free, but we aren't going to strain ourselves to make it happen.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 04-18-14 at 11:56 AM.
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  9. #259
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    No, not necessarily, but it usually it is. Look at the difference between West Germany and East Germany or North Korea and South Korea. Most countries who have established a relationship to the United States have improved through that relationship. I don't see that the same thing could be said of the former Soviet bloc.
    In the case of Ukraine, the US forced the issue of an EU association agreement. When you look at the EU, we find countries like Greece where there are many people starving, dying and cursing the EU. Many people in Europe despise the fact that there country is in the EU. The EU is about to do to Ukraine what it did to Greece. So US influence does not necessarily guarantee well being or being better off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The United States does involve itself in morally ambiguous events -- like the Iran-Iraq War -- and occasionally does vile things, but usually there is a broader context that most people don't consider. The United States prefers doing business with egalitarian democracies when possible, but sometimes the realities of power require us to establish diplomatic, cultural, and economic channels with countries that fall short of the ideals.
    The US cares about egalitarian democracies only when it suits the corporate interests here. A glaring display of that was the example of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. The US did everything in it's power to thwart the democratically elected and popular Chavez and even supported a coup against him by being the first to recognize the coup leaders as valid. It even supported the overthrow of someone as benign as Aristide, so your statement about preferring egalitarian democracies is not correct.

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Nice theory, but the United States doesn't have nearly that level of interest or control in that part of the world. It's the Ukrainians who are interested in us, or rather, Western Europe first and us second. They want to draw from the water of the West's economic resources, richer and more accessible than Russia's, to develop their own society. Our political structures are more attractive than Russia's autocracy and Soviet heritage, which countries like Ukraine still resent.
    It's not a theory. It was the US that spearheaded the efforts to overthrow Yanukovych after he rejected the EU association agreement. The Assistant Secretary of State, Victoria Nuland directly fomented protest in the streets. She directly threatened the powerful Akhmetov, who controlled a powerful bloc in Parliament of about 45 MPs, that if he didn't put pressure on Yanukovych he would be exposed. She also directly threatened Yanukovych right after passing out food to protesters. The problem is that there are many people in Ukraine that do not want to be a part of the EU. We should have left that up for their leaders to decide. If we don't like the leaders, wait until the next election.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The United States wouldn't mind acquiring them in our sphere of influence for free, but we aren't going to strain ourselves to make it happen.
    We went out of our way in Ukraine.

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