View Poll Results: Are Neocons A Threat To World Peace?

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  • Yes

    44 61.11%
  • No

    28 38.89%
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Thread: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

  1. #211
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    And I'd love to hear what, exactly, the conservatives think should be done instead of economic sanctions.
    I say we increase sanctions and begin to install a missile defense system to protect Europe. Or we could sit back and wait to see what Neville Chamberlain I mean Barack Obama doesn't do next. After Putin invades and conquers Sudetenland, I mean Ukraine we should hold a conference with the Russians in someplace neutral, like oh I don't know maybe Munich! I'm sure Putin will come to his senses and put an end to his dream of Soviet glory if only we let him keep Crimea and Ukraine.
    Last edited by SgtRock; 04-16-14 at 11:46 PM.
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  2. #212
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Neo-Cons are the greatest threat to World Peace. They want an Empire called the New World Order.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Neo-Cons are the greatest threat to World Peace. They want an Empire called the New World Order.
    Which Neo-Cons in particular? Care to name names??

  4. #214
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Which Neo-Cons in particular? Care to name names??
    You name the Neo Cons as you claim to be the only one on this board who knows who they are. Wolfowotz, Perle, Cheney, Bushes, and all the signatories to the PNAC document, among others.

  5. #215
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    You name the Neo Cons as you claim to be the only one on this board who knows who they are. Wolfowotz, Perle, Cheney, Bushes, and all the signatories to the PNAC document, among others.
    Wolfowitz-Yes.

    Perle-Yes.

    Bush: Sr-No, Jr.-Maybe (domestic policy can be similar, foreign policy neo-reaganites would agree with him). Jeb: Maybe (domestic policy is similar) but still iffy.

    Cheney-No.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  6. #216
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    We tried that at a place called Hiroshima. It didn't work.
    Wrong answer. Hiroshima was about 420 miles away from Tokyo, and by that time Japan had precious little in the way of communication, whether by air or by road or by train. Their communications in the area would have gone bye-bye in the flash of the Bomb. The Japanese High Command certainly had not witnessed what had happened.

    I remember reading that the Japanese High Command simply didn't know what to make of what happened to Hiroshima - they couldn't believe the scattered claims that one plane had done all the damage they were being told occurred. They were sure that the initial reports were erroneous for whatever reason, that it was simply another one of the horrendous firebombing attacks like that which had destroyed 15.8 square miles of Tokyo in one night in the previous March...and they had seen that with their own eyes.

    So...no, guy, they didn't know for sure what had happened, much less how it happened. After a few days they began to think that maybe some kind of super bomb had indeed destroyed that city...but that did not allow them time enough to decide what to do before Nagasaki was bombed.
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  7. #217
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    I say we increase sanctions and begin to install a missile defense system to protect Europe. Or we could sit back and wait to see what Neville Chamberlain I mean Barack Obama doesn't do next. After Putin invades and conquers Sudetenland, I mean Ukraine we should hold a conference with the Russians in someplace neutral, like oh I don't know maybe Munich! I'm sure Putin will come to his senses and put an end to his dream of Soviet glory if only we let him keep Crimea and Ukraine.
    Missile defense. Big whoop. Putin isn't interested in a general thermonuclear exchange, and so those don't mean a whole lot to him. So exactly how is this military posturing supposed to stop him from marching on Kiev, hm?
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

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  8. #218
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Wrong answer. Hiroshima was about 420 miles away from Tokyo, and by that time Japan had precious little in the way of communication, whether by air or by road or by train. Their communications in the area would have gone bye-bye in the flash of the Bomb. The Japanese High Command certainly had not witnessed what had happened.

    I remember reading that the Japanese High Command simply didn't know what to make of what happened to Hiroshima - they couldn't believe the scattered claims that one plane had done all the damage they were being told occurred. They were sure that the initial reports were erroneous for whatever reason, that it was simply another one of the horrendous firebombing attacks like that which had destroyed 15.8 square miles of Tokyo in one night in the previous March...and they had seen that with their own eyes.

    So...no, guy, they didn't know for sure what had happened, much less how it happened. After a few days they began to think that maybe some kind of super bomb had indeed destroyed that city...but that did not allow them time enough to decide what to do before Nagasaki was bombed.
    In fact they did - they had enough time certainly to vote to reject surrender. Just as they rejected surrender (again) after Nagasaki. It wasn't until we threatened them with a hundred more of the things, which we claimed we would use to turn the entire home island chain into ash, that the votes in favor of surrender even managed to tie the votes in favor of fighting to the honorable end. You point out that they had witnessed the firebombing of Tokyo - don't forget that the firebombing of Tokyo was the single most destructive air raid in history, more destructive than either of the Atomic bombs. A single bombing less powerful than that which didn't even kill anyone would have been less impressive than a single bombing less powerful than that which did wipe out plenty, and that single bombing wasn't enough to do it.

    The "oh, well, had the Japanese high command realized that their people would have suffered they would have quite" argument is a mirror-image fallacy; imputing western values onto early 20th Century Japanese decision-makers. Similarly, the claim that they couldn't have received enough direct information from Hiroshima, but did from Nagasaki is flawed, as Nagasaki is almost twice as far from Tokyo as Hiroshima is.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-17-14 at 09:16 AM.

  9. #219
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Missile defense. Big whoop. Putin isn't interested in a general thermonuclear exchange, and so those don't mean a whole lot to him. So exactly how is this military posturing supposed to stop him from marching on Kiev, hm?
    Getting rid of American missile defense in Poland was a major Russian foreign policy achievement under Putin. The question is not whether or not he would consider it a "big whoop" (he would), but whether or not Eastern Europe leadership is willing to trust us on that again after we betrayed them on the subject in 2009.

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    If you want to play semantics go play semantics. I'm here to enjoy refuting your hilariously self-centered and naive notion that the fact that some state department lady was married to a writer is why Putin invaded Crimea.
    I fail to see the humor in the Assistant Secretary of State of the United States directly fomenting protest against a democratically elected leader right before she is to meet with him. What was self centered and arrogant was her "f*** the EU" remark.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You appear to be unaware of the history of the intellectual movement you are attacking. That's not terribly surprising, but you may want to engage in some basic background research. Neoconservatives reached their apex after the Cold War, they didn't need it.
    What they need is a conflict. They need to keep the people of the United States in a perpetual state of war so that they can feel secure. It doesn't matter whether it's the Cold War, the Iraq war, the war on terrorism, they have to have something to feed their destructive desire to control the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    fantastic. Demonstrate it.
    I have already done it. Go back and read the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Wait. You are admitting that Putin took Crimea because he could and still blaming some out-of-power intellectuals in the U.S.?
    The neocons like yourself want to strangle Russia. Putin did it because he had to after Victoria Nuland, essentially brought down the government of Yanukovych after he rejected the EU association offer. He did it because he had to and he had the ability to.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Not least because that is an idiotic idea. You seem to be unable to grasp that opposition to pacifism and weakness abroad does not require a single solution, similar to the inability of advocates of large government to differentiate between small government and anarchy.
    You seem to be unable to grasp there is a difference between pacifism and promoting ideas such as preempting the rise of states like Russia and China that will lead to perpetual war. The concept is just over your head.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is certainly one reason, though hardly the only one.

    But flip the math. What would have caused Putin to decide not to invade Georgia? What would have caused him to decide not to invade Crimea? What would have made him decide not to launch a cyber-attack on Estonia?

    U.S. military capability and will to defend the territorial integrity of other nations under threat by nearby autocrats.
    And that's your problem right there. You want the US to go to war with Russia over Ukraine. Your position requires that the US be willing to go to war with Russia over Ukraine if necessary. What it ignores is that Ukraine, specifically Crimea, is a high vital interest for Russia. It's do or die for them. For the US, Ukraine simply does not fall into that level of interest. And therefore it is not worth going to war with Russia over Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That's an interesting statement. Which neocons are urging the United States to go to war with the U.S. over Crimea?
    No one is urging that the US go to war with the US over Crimea. What you have put forward is the notion that US military capability should be used to deter Putin in Crimea. The only way to make that credible is that the US would have to be prepared to go to war with Russia over Crimea.

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