View Poll Results: Are Neocons A Threat To World Peace?

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  • Yes

    44 61.11%
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    28 38.89%
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Thread: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

  1. #11
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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Militaristic nationalism has always been the biggest enemy of peace and liberty. So, to answer your question, yes.

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Or if after WWI we would have set in place bases like we did after WWII. You would have thought an educated man like BO would have learned that lesson before leaving Iraq like he did. Some day we will likely have to return there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    neocons aren't the only hawks. interventionism itself can be a threat to world peace in certain situations. other times, it's warranted, such as WWII. there was no way to stay out of that one, but it's debatable whether WWII would have even happened if WWI hadn't occurred.

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    The two selected quotes are expected aspirations for world powers. That it has become taboo to state the obvious is merely hiding the way the world works. It's impolite dinner manners, but it's what each person at the dinner table is thinking.

    While I think the Scoop Jackson crowd (to segregate out some "neoconservative" tendencies from others) have frequently been wrong in their policy prescriptions and have overemphasized the ability and perhaps desirability of the United States fostering democratic regimes and idealism throughout the world, I do not think they represent a greater or lesser danger to world peace than other tendencies. They can be wrong a large amount of time, but like anything else, danger to world peace comes in many forms.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What leads you to believe Putin was 'longing for close cooperation with the West' or that Neoconservatives were core of the NATO expansion/Russian containment movement?
    The school of neoconservatives the OP is using had chosen to argue that Russia, China, and a number of other states or world powers needed to be contained, and if necessarily, replaced-with regimes that were both more congenial to U.S. policy objectives and western democratic ideals. In other words, what was good for the U.S. was good for the world. During the 1990s, Russia was not nearly on their radar as the other states were, but throughout Putin's tenure, the old Scoop Jackson crowd and their intellectual offspring have more or less suggested that old habits die hard in Russia, thus the U.S. needs to remain vigilant.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 04-10-14 at 01:50 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    "neocon" to the dogmatic leftist acts like "liberal" to the mouth foaming dittohead. It is the pejoritive that embodies all manner of evil.

    As to the original neocon movement,however, one objective was to liberalize the middle east among other things,and even if this was a display of complete hubris, a more liberal middle east WOULD help deliver peace.
    That wasn't a real objective of the original neoconservatives. Many had been concerned about the health of the Israeli state, and the defense of western civilization from the Soviet Union, but most of the thrust was on U.S. domestic policy. Even during the early years of the Scoop Jackson Democrats, democracy was an as-needed basis. It was hardly the most important foreign policy objective. Thus they could support authoritarian right-wing regimes, if it meant that the U.S. and its western allies would have friends stopping the spread of the USSR's influence. It wasn't until the democratic elections in the Philippines that someone like Wolfowitz became among the first to advocate for democratic idealism as a precept of U.S. foreign policy. Eventually other like-minded individuals agreed with him.

    Even so, the older generation tended to think less about interventionism once the Soviet Union faded (let alone the majority of neoconservatives who were divided on foreign policy and focused primarily on domestic policy). It was Wolfowitz, Podhoretz, and some of the younger pups that argued that the 90's were a needed time for U.S. leadership.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 04-10-14 at 02:04 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    World Peace?

    How about a threat to America?

    These arrogant, insecure, often delusional ignoramuses and their obsession with controlling everything; do nothing more then get brave U.S. military personnel killed thousands of miles from home fighting hopeless battles while costing U.S. taxpayers trillions that they do not have to keep them there...all the while creating more and more enemies by pissing just about everyone else off.
    And that is not even mentioning the idiocy of utilizing 'regime change' as an act of foreign policy.

    IMO, Neocons are far more of a threat to American greatness (and world peace) then any terrorist organization ever could be.

    And if that offends Neocons, good...mission accomplished (pun intended).
    Last edited by DA60; 04-10-14 at 02:10 PM.

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    No we aren't--and he is right.
    Yes you are and he is wrong. Why? The problem is that the principle of preventing the emergence of potential competitors, as a policy objective, naturally lends itself to the creation of destructive tension between ourselves and others actors on the world stage. This type of destructive tension is perpetual because the natural tendency of states is to increase their influence. Thwarting the rise of potential competitors thus becomes a zero sum game in which one side wins and the other side loses.

    The practical effects of this type of thinking are glaringly on display currently in Ukraine. Instead of focusing on creating a situation in which both sides would benefit, the focus became either we win or lose. Therefore the US went all out, and the result is the current mess.

    Preventing the rise of potential competitors should not therefore be a goal of US foreign policy. In areas where we have conflicting objectives with other parties we should first of all carefully assess the situation and place it into one of the following two broad categories:

    1. There is a clear threat to our vital interests
    2. There is potential risk to our interests

    In both cases the approach take the following steps in order:

    1. Seek a solution that is a win-win for both sides.
    2. Seek a solution in which both sides agree to divide the situation into well defined and respected boundaries
    3. Seek to buy out or co-opt the other side.

    Having failed in these attempts, if the situation is such that there is only a risk to our interests, but not a clear and present danger to our vital interests, we should maintain the status quo and monitor the situation carefully to insure that it does not rise to the level of a direct threat. However if it is determined that there is a clear and present direct danger to our vital interests, we must then seek a solution that thwarts the power of the other side, even if it involves violent coercion.

    Thwarting the rise of potential competitors logical conclusion is the implementation of a dangerous doctrine of pre-emption. Such a doctrine is the catalyst for perpetual war and will likely lead to a destructive world war in the future.

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    neocons aren't the only hawks.
    No they aren't, but they are very prominent and vocal ones and we should never forget that they hijacked the US foreign policy apparatus and led us into Iraq on a witch hunt for non-existent weapons of mass destruction.

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post

    President John F Kennedy believed this as well, and I do not think we would label him as a neocon, would we?
    I hate to get into that, because it means we have to project a bit after his assassination-which is not fun. Certain neoconservatives wanted to make that argument (hell, everyone wanted to claim Kennedy as their own, so why not neoconservatives?), but it's tricky. Parts of the claim make sense, others won't, while others still require us to project years, perhaps decades after his death.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Are Neocons A Threat to World Peace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What leads you to believe Putin was 'longing for close cooperation with the West' or that Neoconservatives were core of the NATO expansion/Russian containment movement?
    With regards to the neocons, they are certainly part of the core of NATO expansion/Russian containment.

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