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The Wealth Gap

Does it matter Millionaire - Billionaire?


  • Total voters
    42
Your assumption is that because wealth can be created, then it must infinite.

Let's walk through a bare-bones example of how wealth is created out of thin air. You know a lot about fixing cars but nothing at all about home plumbing. I know a lot about home plumbing but nothing at all about fixing cars. If we didn't know each other, then it would take us each 1 hour to do the work that we're knowledgeable about and 6 hours to hack our way through the job we don't know anything about. Someone introduces us and we trade services. You give me one hour of your time and you fix my car and I give you an hour of my time and I fix your home plumbing problem. By engaging in this trade we've now freed up 5 hours of our time, we've created wealth when that 5 hours can now be put to some other activity which earns us money.

Poof, right out of thin air we've created wealth and we didn't have to use resources to do it.
 
I don't see how the manipulation of currency proves there is no zero-sum game. You could have all the money in the world, but it would mean nothing if I owned the Earth and its resources.

My point was that the money supply is not finite at all, within certain parameters. The economy is elastic, and the supply of resources is not a distributive game. My income is not limited by how much money someone else has, unless I work directly for him, and only for him. There is much more at play than a total sum of resources, and a defined number of recipients.
 
Many have become Millionaires from well run businesses that used laborers to add value to some product. They are/were making jobs. Billionaires make money by shuffling paper. Bonds, stocks, hedges, warrnats, futures, etc. and if they create a demand for any honest labor, I don't see it. An example is the recent "too big to fail" bank bailout. Trillions of dollars went to these banks. Did that create jobs? No. Why wasn't the money targetted to labor intensive recovery options? I'd guess political influence was used by these same "too big to fail" banks. The power of big money. I've seen discussion of EU aristocracy on the board and I believe we have been there a long time. JD Rockefeller had a billion dollars in `1913 and the US budget was $813 million. Who had the power. Rockefeller had sons that were also good businessmen and do politics, banks, energy corporations, etc. David Rockefeller is alleged to be the driving force behind tha NWO. Aristocracy?

And the problem with having billions is the ability to manipulate the system to ensure you make billions more, at any costs. Look at those board members at GM that are getting all lawyer'd up, because they hid those "switch" problems with their cars over the years for money's sake.
 
Nobody should be allowed to have a billion dollars. We need an upper-upper tax bracket of 100%.
From a "right - libertarian" ?
The billion dollars needs defined.
I care not for the Scrooge McDuck vaults containing trillions...dead money...of no use....same with the money in a mattress..
But working capital, one day in the billions, the next day in the thousands....the risk......
The tax schedules and rates can be improved.
 
From a "right - libertarian" ?
The billion dollars needs defined.
I care not for the Scrooge McDuck vaults containing trillions...dead money...of no use....same with the money in a mattress..
But working capital, one day in the billions, the next day in the thousands....the risk......
The tax schedules and rates can be improved.

No human being on earth needs to have a billion dollars. That's a flaw in our system that we even have that.
 
Because I'm European. In Europe, we made that mistake generations ago. Today, we have aristocracies. Generational wealth. These people don't work for a living. They leave that up to the "working class" (so called for a reason).

The aristocrats live off their inheritance, the value of their land, and their inherited stock assets. They buy political power and they are above the law.

These people are a cancer to society, and you should stop it from happening before it infects your whole society.

What makes America great is that it's a land of opportunity where anyone can make it. Rags to riches. You are losing that.
Problem is, as you probably know, those who have this insane insane wealth influence and pretty much own those who are in a position to limit their power. So then how do you stop it?
 
Let's walk through a bare-bones example of how wealth is created out of thin air. You know a lot about fixing cars but nothing at all about home plumbing. I know a lot about home plumbing but nothing at all about fixing cars. If we didn't know each other, then it would take us each 1 hour to do the work that we're knowledgeable about and 6 hours to hack our way through the job we don't know anything about. Someone introduces us and we trade services. You give me one hour of your time and you fix my car and I give you an hour of my time and I fix your home plumbing problem. By engaging in this trade we've now freed up 5 hours of our time, we've created wealth when that 5 hours can now be put to some other activity which earns us money.

Poof, right out of thin air we've created wealth and we didn't have to use resources to do it.

I never argued that wealth cannot be created. My argument is since resources are finite then wealth is finite.
 
Nobody should be allowed to have a billion dollars. We need an upper-upper tax bracket of 100%.

Get rid of that Libertarian lean, cause it doesn't even come close to fitting.
 
My point was that the money supply is not finite at all, within certain parameters.

I think you are confusing the terms 'finite' and 'fixed.' The supply of money is certainly finite, otherwise it would be worthless.

The economy is elastic, and the supply of resources is not a distributive game.

Can you build an acre? Can I conjure up water with my mind?
 
It doesn't matter either way to me. The economy isn't a zero-sum game, and the fact that one individual has millions of dollars doesn't mean that others have less than they would have had otherwise.

Thats not entirely true.

Once a certain level is reached, people stop spending money on things that create jobs and monetary velocity and start doing things like gambling on the stock market and speculating. Activities that are primarily extractive rather than productive.

The overall economy, and everybodys quality of life is better served when a hundred people have ten million dollars each than one with a billion.

There are reasons only a tiny fraction of the population has seen great gains the last forty years while everyone elses wages have been stagnant or even fallen.

Extractive, non productive fiscal activities.

Piles of money to buy politicians.

Ego (at the end of the day, after a point acquiring more wealth is just scorekeeping and self aggrandizement. Pride and a sense of superiority.)

Further, at any given point in time the economy IS a zero sum game. And those with most of the existing pie get most of all new pie BECAUSE they have most of the existing pie.

The majority are poorer as a result of all this.

When a millionaire buys a fancy car, that money goes through numerous hands. The manufacturer, his employees. The dealer and salesman. Mechanics. Etc. And all those people spend a lot of that money, on food, housing, entertainment. Providing jobs and income to MANY people as that money flows through the economy.

When someone uses that money to speculate on real estate, for example. They make money. Maybe a real estate broker and a remodeling contractor. Far fewer "conduits" of money to flow into the overall economy. And the profits from such speculation come directly from consumers in the form of higher rents and home prices, often with no addition of value. Just artificial "shortages" that create higher prices due to perceived high demand.

Its even worse with things like currency speculation.

Another issue with the upper fractions of a percent is they tend to be the ones in control of everybody's retirement money. So all our eggs are in their basket. And they decide what new businesses get investment and which don't. Picking winners and losers. Based on profitability alone. Which means that a product that would improve the lives of every human on the planet but would cut into profits of companies the fund managers own stock in will never see the light of day. And highly profitable crap gets all the investment.

So its not just the wealth the possess but that which they control as well that is problematic.
 
I never argued that wealth cannot be created. My argument is since resources are finite then wealth is finite.

What resources were consumed in that scenario. What we traded was knowledge and skill.
 
I voted peanut butter. It's their money... If they earned it legally I don't care where it came from or how much.
 
What resources were consumed in that scenario. What we traded was knowledge and skill.

I suppose it matters how far you go back. I take it both those individuals party to that contract were trained/equipped (initially) from a 'pot' of resources, so to speak?

Paul
 
I voted "NO", but I don't agree with the "they are both too wealthy". "Too" wealthy will always be subjective. But with money comes the power to create more money. That strange equation needs a balance - my preference is a perfectly progressive tax that does not discriminate based on some magical line that needs to be crossed. There's no need to differentiate between the guy that makes 10k, 1M, or 1B - a progressive tax would regulate their ability to extract wealth without prejudice.
 
Some people dream of making it big, others believe in sitting around, voting for socialist and taking from the successful for themselves.

some is rich
some is poor
that's the way the world is
but I don't believe in laying back
and saying how bad your luck is

Joe Strummer
 
That's too much money for one person.

That much money is power. I'm not in favor of too much power in the hands of only a few.

The Bill Gates' and Warren Buffet's of the world should be capped at like 50 million.

Are you suggesting the government should take whatever they make over a certain amount? If so they would spend it like they spend all the other tax payer contributions and ask for more, just like they do now.

I can see where it would be bad for business and the economy if people were limited to a certain income. Bank executives could work for say, six months, shut down the bank, then open it again at the beginning of the next tax season.

Do you really think anyone would work for free to keep the ship afloat?
 
Some people dream of making it big, others believe in sitting around, voting for socialist and taking from the successful for themselves.

true, but people who sit around see wealth as a single pie, with only so much pie to go around, therefore if you have more of the pie then anyone else, its not fair to them.

others see the ability to create as many pies as we want, therefore everyone has the opportunity to earn as big a slice of the pie as they dream.
 
What resources were consumed in that scenario. What we traded was knowledge and skill.

Knowledge and skill are certainly resources (perhaps obtained through hours of classes/practice). There is also the manual labor, tools, and new parts.
 
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