View Poll Results: Is Liberalism itself Illiberal?

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  • Yes

    4 28.57%
  • No

    10 71.43%
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Thread: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

  1. #51
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    ecofarm's Avatar
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Everything doesn't have to be a tit for tat situation. Liberalism is really taking on the trappings of a religious belief. Just because liberalism is transforming into a quasi-religion doesn't mean that conservatism has to nor that conservatism even has the foundational structures onto which religious beliefs can be mapped.
    hahaha

  2. #52
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    1 point for being clever. 1 demerit for lack of substance. Altogether, a wash.
    Fair enough!

    Although there is some truth to what I said.

  3. #53
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    hahaha
    "A" for you my man!!! You knocked it out of the park!!!!

  4. #54
    Sage
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    hahaha
    Don't get confused by the fact that there are a lot of Christian fundamentalists who are conservative. Religious people can be conservative but they do a pretty good job at not seeing conservative principles as a substitute for their religion. The don't find personal salvation in supporting a lower capital gains tax rate.

  5. #55
    global liberation

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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Don't get confused by the fact that there are a lot of Christian fundamentalists who are conservative. Religious people can be conservative but they do a pretty good job at not seeing conservative principles as a substitute for their religion. The don't find personal salvation in supporting a lower capital gains tax rate.
    It seems some find personal salvation in supporting racists. Others find personal salvation in denying social freedoms. Some even find personal salvation in their economic position.

    Let's face it, conservatives find salvation in politics just as much as any other group.

  6. #56
    Doesn't go below juicy
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    What if you carefully control their environment and condition them from the time they are small? Is is possible to condition a set of values on people in general in this way?
    I think some will take and some not, but are you really willing to try and brainwash everyone?

  7. #57
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    That's interesting. Could you explain exactly what you mean by lack of assumptions that all members of society can share and how that relates to the late 80s?
    We don't have a common culture. Watch a movie from the 80s like breakfast club and watch a movie made today.

  8. #58
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I think some will take and some not, but are you really willing to try and brainwash everyone?
    I think most will take it and very very few would actually think critically. It's not easy.

  9. #59
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    My conclusion is that because of it's inability to accommodate values that contradict liberalism, liberalism itself is illiberal. It's actually a result of the rather flawed notion that humans can be free to do as they desire. Everyone has to operate within constraints. The challenge is in determining what those constraints should be and who should decide what those constraints should be. Actually, that's basically what government does.

  10. #60
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I think most will take it and very very few would actually think critically. It's not easy.
    The people who think critically are the ones who will. One cannot make a horse drink. And you are probably right that such a dogma could be enforced, to a point though and only for a limited time. Just as communism failed, even the noncritical thinkers are not a blank slate to which society can write their values on (this idea is something that western culture and belief about human nature got very wrong and has lead to millions of deaths). People are predisposed since birth towards certain preferences. for example, the koala is born knowing what to eat or else you would see koala's trying rocks, platypus, tree bark, etc. People are the same way, we tend to want love in our life, we tend to abhor murder, etc.

    I firmly believe that because of that predisposition, society is always going to regress to the mean. This is why all OECD countries essentially have become social democracies and why other countries, as they develop economically seem to be headed in that direction as well.

    But I closely agree with your assessment. Liberalism (as in 1700s liberalism) got a lot wrong about human nature. But it also got a lot right and lead to innovations in society that have increased the standard of living many times over. We must always remember, we are the same species that just a few thousands of years ago were in small tribes constantly warring with each other over resources and much of our instinctual social behavior is based on those values with a veneer of society on top. Instead of tribes, we now have soccer hooligans, motorcycle gangs, and even nation states (at a very abstracted level). We can only go a certain number of degrees of abstraction away from associations we were evolved to have before things break down. Liberalism can't be liberal in its own ideals because people will identify with their version of morality and shut out competing ideas, unless they are very unusual individuals as this is a basic human emotional need.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 04-04-14 at 01:03 PM.

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