View Poll Results: Is Liberalism itself Illiberal?

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  • Yes

    4 28.57%
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    10 71.43%
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Thread: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    Right now both major groups are tribal over ideological. It's a huge contributor to our current political difficulties.

    We are in a transitory strage where we just released the printing press 2.0 and look at what that thing did to existing political systems five nearly six hundred years ago. For example anabaptists and they chaos they unleashed.

    Right now due to technological disruption and the lack of common assumptions that all members of society can share (because that died in the late 80s) we will stay in this tribal phase perhaps for a couple of generations. Eventually new assumptions will be made but probably not be anything we can currently predict

    Many western assumptions about the do no harm principal (which later gave birth to the idea of natural rights) as being the basis for morality (which is unusual given how most societies develop) is being fundamentally questioned even though it is the catalyst for so much progress (as seen by western eyes, most of the world thinks OECD countries are insane hedonists) but will probably survive in altered forms as many of those assumptions about how human free will (and thus many of our philosophical foundations) works is not standing up to scientific scrutiny. But that's the reason the country deviated from its initial ideals anyway, they weren't realistic societal goals.

    So yes we are illiberal and yet very liberal, just not in any pure ideological or philosophical sense.
    That's interesting. Could you explain exactly what you mean by lack of assumptions that all members of society can share and how that relates to the late 80s?

  2. #42
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I fail to understand what is meaningless about it. I explained what I meant in the original post. Basically the question is whether liberalism can accommodate a value system that in opposition to the values of liberalism. And if not, doesn't it's inability to accommodate such values place it in contradiction to the values of liberalism itself?

    I don't know what else to say. Again, I'm not trying to make a value judgement on whether that is right or wrong, I was pondering the question earlier this morning and I thought I would find out what others had to say.
    Liberalism that we see in play in America today is quite far removed from its historical roots. Today it's really a religion for its adherents.

  3. #43
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    The same imperfect people need to realize when they've made poor, value based choices and rectify them. We need a system that is human centric and takes in the security of its people above the success of its business. Though they seem synonymous to some degree, it's possible to become too materialistic.

    Though trying to manipulate a peoples thought processes, with excess rules and social control is utterly stupid.
    Although I agree with what you have said here, isn't the desire to control things a part of human nature? And if that's the case, isn't it inevitable that people with the power to do so will try to manipulate the thought processes of others?

  4. #44
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Liberalism that we see in play in America today is quite far removed from its historical roots. Today it's really a religion for its adherents.
    I agree with you there. The same can be said for conservatism.

  5. #45
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I agree with you there. The same can be said for conservatism.
    What constitutes Original Sin in conservatism? What constitutes redemption and salvation in conservatism? What constitutes holy war in conservatism? What constitutes penance?

  6. #46
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    If people feel they are unable to make value judgments on the society that they take a part in, you will immediately get disaffection and probably eventually a revolutionary attitude. People will never be happy with a code of conduct that they can't get emotionally involved in.
    What if you carefully control their environment and condition them from the time they are small? Is is possible to condition a set of values on people in general in this way?

  7. #47
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    What constitutes Original Sin in conservatism? What constitutes redemption and salvation in conservatism? What constitutes holy war in conservatism? What constitutes penance?
    What is the point you are trying to make?

  8. #48
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    What is the point you are trying to make?
    Everything doesn't have to be a tit for tat situation. Liberalism is really taking on the trappings of a religious belief. Just because liberalism is transforming into a quasi-religion doesn't mean that conservatism has to nor that conservatism even has the foundational structures onto which religious beliefs can be mapped.

  9. #49
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Everything doesn't have to be a tit for tat situation. Liberalism is really taking on the trappings of a religious belief. Just because liberalism is transforming into a quasi-religion doesn't mean that conservatism has to nor that conservatism even has the foundational structures onto which religious beliefs can be mapped.
    OK I got it. The original sin is blasphemy against the principle that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Redemption is to swear not to ever again blasphemy against the principle that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Holy war is to engage in telling others that it's not true that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Penance is to engage in preaching the gospel all over the world that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Salvation is the desired goal and bliss of taking everyone's money and trickling it back down to them.

  10. #50
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    OK I got it. The original sin is blasphemy against the principle that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Redemption is to swear not to ever again blasphemy against the principle that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Holy war is to engage in telling others that it's not true that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Penance is to engage in preaching the gospel all over the world that black folks are trying to take white folks money. Salvation is the desired goal and bliss of taking everyone's money and trickling it back down to them.
    1 point for being clever. 1 demerit for lack of substance. Altogether, a wash.

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