View Poll Results: Is Liberalism itself Illiberal?

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  • Yes

    4 28.57%
  • No

    10 71.43%
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Thread: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No wonder you liberals are so screwed up
    Do you think using the terms liberal and socialist and feminazi as Rushbo does is a winning ticket this election?
    you have no idea what the opposition is all about.
    Have you seen the latest Dem ads on ACA?
    What parts of ACA should be included in the GOP health proposal we've never seen?
    Nothing you've said above has anything to do with conservatism.
    You'd be surprised at how much mod/con DEms know about REAL conservatism .
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  2. #22
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    Do you think using the terms liberal and socialist and feminazi as Rushbo does is a winning ticket this election?
    I don't give a damn what that tub of lard does.

    Have you seen the latest Dem ads on ACA?
    What parts of ACA should be included in the GOP health proposal we've never seen?
    Since the GOP aren't conservative either, I don't see how that matters. We've allowed Obama to essentially ruin health care in this country, even worse than it was before. He can't get enough paying people to sign up for his boondoggle to make it solvent, yet he won't be able to back out of it either so we'll just borrow more money from China to pay the costs for a system that just doesn't work.

    You'd be surprised at how much mod/con DEms know about REAL conservatism .
    I'm constantly surprised how little the GOP knows about real conservatism, considering they pretend that they are conservative most of the time, yet don't actually support any of the core beliefs in conservatism like fiscal responsibility and a small government.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  3. #23
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Nonsense. Modern liberalism violates every last principle that classical liberalism stand for. Classical liberals wanted to keep the state in the condition of fighting against its own nonexistence and keeping the government separate from almost everything in life. Moderns liberals want the state involved and managing everything in life and have no problem not obeying any sort of restraint if it serves their needs.

    Classical liberals defend the natural rights of people and believe the state is to serve the purpose of protecting those rights, while modern liberals defend the idea that government is the entity behind all authority and that the people only have a right to what the state says they do. The only thing modern liberals truly care for is power.
    You would find very few men among the Founding Fathers who weren't involved with and didn't admire the state. You would find a lot of them who disliked aristocrats or inherited wealth, since they were mostly New Money.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  4. #24
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No wonder you liberals are so screwed up, you have no idea what the opposition is all about. Nothing you've said above has anything to do with conservatism.
    Conservatives stand for existing power structures because they "work" and, uh, give them the power and influence that they feel they deserve. Thus the Koch brothers lean conservative and tend to support the corporate-dominated power structure of the Republican Party and its influence on Washington and state politics.

    Usually the most conservative families in Europe at the second to last turn of the century were aristocrats and kings. A lot of them (like the Hapsburgs) lost their thrones during and after the First World War, and some of them (Archduke Ferdinand, Czar and his family) lost their lives, as Europe inclined toward socialism.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 04-02-14 at 05:19 PM.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Conservatives stand for existing power structures because they "work" and, uh, give them the power and influence that they feel they deserve. Thus the Koch brothers lean conservative.
    Yes indeed, they do. That doesn't mean they want to turn back the clock or are opposed to worthwhile change, it means they don't move from things that demonstrably work to things that have not been demonstrated to work, just for the sake of change. It has to be earned.

    Usually the most conservative families in Europe at the second to last turn of the century were aristocrats and kings. A lot of them (like the Hapsburgs) lost their thrones during and after the First World War, and some of them (Archduke Ferdinand, Czar and his family) lost their lives, as Europe inclined toward socialism.
    And Europe isn't doing so hot economically, are they? That's because they're far left liberal fiscal systems are collapsing on them, just like ours are starting to.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  6. #26
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Yes indeed, they do. That doesn't mean they want to turn back the clock or are opposed to worthwhile change, it means they don't move from things that demonstrably work to things that have not been demonstrated to work, just for the sake of change. It has to be earned.
    The influence of men like the Kochs affects the lives of hundreds of millions of people in their country and billions more across the world, for decades and maybe even for centuries and thousands of years to come. I doubt anything they've ever done and could do justifies that level of influence over human destiny.

    And Europe isn't doing so hot economically, are they? That's because they're far left liberal fiscal systems are collapsing on them, just like ours are starting to.
    You really should pause and think about beliefs like these more often. Where exactly was Russia under the Czar? How exactly does Europe compare with Africa and Latin America? Nothing works well everywhere all the time.

    You also have an uncritical habit of accusing welfare states of failure because they aren't 100% meeting the challenges of a rapidly changing global economy, when the inability to evolve is due mostly the obstruction of conservatives.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  7. #27
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The influence of men like the Kochs affects the lives of hundreds of millions of people in their country and billions more across the world, for decades and maybe even for centuries and thousands of years to come.
    Jesus influenced billions. Aristotle influenced billions. Confucius influenced billions. Locke influenced billions. Marx influenced billions. If the ideas and messages put forth by the Kochs speak to people in such a way that their message actually influences them, then why on Earth should they be prohibited from reaching out to everyone who wants to listen to them?

  8. #28
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Jesus influenced billions. Aristotle influenced billions. Confucius influenced billions. Locke influenced billions. Marx influenced billions. If the ideas and messages put forth by the Kochs speak to people in such a way that their message actually influences them, then why on Earth should they be prohibited from reaching out to everyone who wants to listen to them?
    I'm not against sharing ideas or free speech, but you can do that on YouTube for free. I'm against special interests supporting the two-party system via their influence on the media (deciding debates) and then buying congressmen in both parties like insurance packages, to make sure they get the regulations, trade deals, and tax exemptions they feel they deserve. Policies like gerrymandering are employed to shore up this system and ensure its invincibility from anything except a revolution.

    It exploits the weakness of human beings to turn democracy into a superficial, powerless thing. Without democracy, the common man lacks the ability to have a voice in human destiny.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  9. #29
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I'm not against sharing ideas or free speech, but you can do that on YouTube for free.
    Why should I or the Kochs be restricted to getting our message out via Youtube when liberals can use the reach of NBC News, the New York Times and messages embedded within the context of Hollywood productions to get their message out? This creates a very unlevel playing field.

    I'm against special interests supporting the two-party system via their influence on the media (deciding debates)
    Like Candy Crowley?

    and then buying congressmen in both parties like insurance packages, to make sure they get the regulations, trade deals, and tax exemptions they feel they deserve.
    Now you're talking about corruption. I doubt that you're going to see many defenders of corruption showing up.

    Without democracy, the common man lacks the ability to have a voice in human destiny.
    Here's a problem - I'm actually scared of what the "common man" will do.

  10. #30
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    Re: Is Liberalism Illiberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    No wonder you liberals are so screwed up, you have no idea what the opposition is all about. Nothing you've said above has anything to do with conservatism.
    His statement is completely consistent with the definitions of conservative and liberal and the actual tendencies in the USA's politics.

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