View Poll Results: The Source of Black Poverty?

Voters
58. You may not vote on this poll
  • The culture-of-poverty option

    22 37.93%
  • The black culture option

    21 36.21%
  • The racism exists option

    11 18.97%
  • All three, with some lean towards 1 & 2

    8 13.79%
  • Any combo, including government

    16 27.59%
  • Other

    14 24.14%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: The Source of Black Poverty

  1. #51
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    The responses to threads like this are so predictable as most of them tend to follow the common narratives about black Americans that permeate society. I suppose I could waste my intellectual energy on explaining the complexity of the issue that is "black poverty", but it's such a fruitless effort. If people want to understand the issue, then there is plenty of easily accessible research available for them. But here's the problem, people don't want to understand the issue. People want to believe in narratives of the welfare queen, the violent black man, colorblindness, meritocracy and whatever other story (read: myth) white people have crafted in order to make themselves feel better about their role in the oppression of black Americans and hide, from themselves, the reality of how pervasive racism and its effects still are in our current society.

    The bottom line is that any explanation that concludes the position of the black population in American society is a function of some deficiency of blacks and "black culture" is racist. Even further, those who advocate that explanation are racists and those who persistently remain silent in the face of that explanation are cowards.
    I worked with a black man (Robert) in a doctor's office, who was educated in the military, read the newspaper everyday, while drinking a double- mocha latte, looking for stocks. He was an imposing physical specimen, who road a sports bike. He had more training than I did and helped me keep my job.

    One day, after work in the parking lot, his bike wouldn't start and he asked for a ride home. On the way, he needed to stop at his girlfriends apt. It was in a notoriously, heavy crime, "black" area of town and when he got out of the car, he started talking to to a guy in a dialect, I'd never heard come out of him. When he got back in the car, I just stared at him, and he said 'what'? I said, what the hell was that.. your Martin Lawrence imitation? He busted out laughing and said, "I'm not about to roll up in the Hood and start talking all Whitey. They'll hand my ass to me." I asked why do you come here, you live in an upscale part of town. And he said, because my family and friends still live here. Just because I can exist in two worlds doesn't mean, I forget who I am. He said too me, "Oh, you think you know what it means to be black, live in my skin for a few years before you even *think* you know."
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  2. #52
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    ................."
    I think that there is an enormous amout of hypocrisy and lack of insight that surrounds this issue. It comes down to a very simple question. Either you believe that Black people are inherently lazy and immoral or you believe that a cultures history in large part shapes how that culture evolves.

    We don't hesitate to take credit for the contributions our forefathers made to how white culture has evolved yet we deny the influence on black history of black culture today. How does that make sense?

    Neither do we hesitate to acknowledge how our own personal history has influenced the formation of our values etc. then some blame the lack of decent parenting for the behaviors they see within the culture while at the same time condemning the child produced from that "poor parenting".

    Does history only matter if we like the results? Shouldn't the premise that history impacts a cultures evolution remain consistent?
    Last edited by opendebate; 04-02-14 at 04:17 PM.
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    I think that there is an enormous amout of hypocrisy and lack of insight that surrounds this issue. It comes down to a very simple question. Either you believe that Black people are inherently lazy and immoral or you believe that a cultures history in large part shapes how that culture evolves.

    We don't hesitate to take credit for the contributions our forefathers made to how white culture has evolved yet we deny the influence of black history of black culture today. How does that make sense?

    Neither do we hesitate to acknowledge how our own personal history has influenced the formation of our values etc. then some blame the lack of decent parenting for the behaviors they see within the culture while at the same time condemning the child produced from that "poor parenting".

    Does history only matter if we like the results? Shouldn't the premise that history impacts a cultures evolution remain consistent?
    That was my point thru most of these posts, is that it's too complicated and historically/socially evolving a subject to narrate with simplistic analogies. Rather than try to dispense blame, the political system could come up with a different approach to the impoverished classes, based on providing opportunities and solutions. Growing the safety net for the basic needs of the many, while protecting the top earners, with public assistance, isn't working out.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    That was my point thru most of these posts, is that it's too complicated and historically/socially evolving a subject to narrate with simplistic analogies. Rather than try to dispense blame, the political system could come up with a different approach to the impoverished classes, based on providing opportunities and solutions. Growing the safety net for the basic needs of the many, while protecting the top earners, with public assistance, isn't working out.
    I agree but think it's even more complicated than that IMO because the history has impacted generations of people. Like any family evolution out of that cycle will take time.

    It's an interesting notion that progressives have created a dependent class by providing support instead of solutions. I can't see that as the whole problem, I think Cons have a tendency to want everything to boil down to one simple source because it fits into the rather black and white way they tend to view the world. To me this idea, of libs creating a dependent class, is rooted in the same racist assumptions; that we are dealing with a group of people who will always take the out if it's available and that necessitates removing the "out". This, once again, is to simplistic an analysis and points the finger back to black Americans as the root cause of the problem. I believe they, like every other individual, play a role of course but it is surrounding conditions rather than a character flaw that is innate in them.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Now, I cherry picked this article, so before you say it's out of context, then "yes" I did not like or agree, at all, with certain aspects of its opinion. But it's an interesting piece, with good talking points.

    I believe, I actually made it more coherent and less bigoted, one way or the other.

    Personally, I think it's a little bit of all three and disagree with the author that it's strictly, option #3. And racism, often thrown around way too much is a notable participant, though existed much more in the past decades than now.


    Article: The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture

    "Here is what is beyond dispute: In 2012, 35 percent of blacks lived in poverty, compared to 13 percent of whites. In 1970, those rates were 33.6 percent and 10 percent, respectively. Poverty in the black community is higher, and has been consistently.

    There exist three options for that persistence, if we assume that culture might play a role.

    • There is something about black culture that prevents black Americans from escaping poverty. We'll call this the black culture option.
    • There is something about the culture of being poor that prevents the poor, regardless of race, from escaping poverty. We'll call this the culture-of-poverty option.
    • There are no internal cultural forces at play. We'll call this, partly for the sake of stirring the pot, the racism exists option.


    Put more simply, there are three options for why black people continue to experience higher levels of poverty: it's in part black people's fault, it's in part poor people's fault, and it's society's fault.

    The culture-of-poverty option

    Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the problem lies with the second option, that there is something about being poor that results in future generations being poor.

    If this culture exists, what are its components? Ryan's remarks offer one view: it involves "men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work, and so there is a real culture problem here that has to be dealt with." Or, put more crassly, parents who have been out of work take refuge in the welfare state, living on food stamps and government services, and their children learn that this is a viable means of survival.

    The paper [Reconsidering Culture and Poverty] surveys some of the best research evidence of the detrimental cultural outgrowths of concentrated urban poverty on parental expectations, sexual behavior, the willingness of students to engage in beneficial activities, and other things.

    The black culture option

    Perhaps another assumption is in order. Let's assume instead that the black culture option is the correct explanation.

    Paul Ryan got in trouble because he implied that the problem was, in short, laziness. Coates frames it loosely in similar terms "black people are less responsible, less moral, or less upstanding" which Chait quickly steps away from, preferring the gauzy expression "cultural norms that inhibited economic success." The paper cited by Chait indicates a number of very specific behaviorisms and attitudes, some of which he notes, but it also downplays the idea of "culture" as an organizing force.

    Not from article; but a section from Coates piece: Black People, Culture And Poverty - Ta-Nehisi Coates - The Atlantic

    We can train black youths, we can move their families to better neighborhoods, etc., but changing their way of thinking is not so easy. Evidence of this lies in the many "mobility" programs that move inner-city families to lower-poverty suburbs: Young women continue to have children out of wedlock and, inexplicably, the young men who move out return to their communities to commit crime! These patterns flummox researchers and, according to Wilson, they will continue to remain mysterious until we look at culture for an answer.

    I think it takes a real flight of fancy to dismiss the culture argument. If you are rich and you've been rich for generations, you almost certainly develop cultural habits. Likewise, if you're poor and you've been poor for generations, you do the same. If you've been wealthy for generations and you were suddenly asked to function in the ghetto, you may have problems because you didn't know the rules. You weren't acculturated. Likewise, if you're poor and you're trying to climb up the economic ladder, you may also have problems.

    The racism exists option

    Believing that black culture is primarily at fault means believing that black cultural attitudes are why the black unemployment rate has always been at least 50 percent higher than white unemployment. It likely means assuming that vague, hard-to-identify and complex cultural attitudes are responsible for most of the things on this bullet list: flat wages, higher rates of arrest for possession of marijuana, higher rates of incarceration, a greater likelihood of being arrested at school, a lower likelihood of being accepted to top-tier colleges.

    American history demonstrates countless examples of racist obstruction of black economic success. Ongoing examples show countless ways in which black Americans are still obstructed in the same way.

    African Americans deal with a unique set of durable circumstances that have festered and worsened over the last forty years." The dominant white culture articulated by Coates and that neglected those communities is the more obvious problem.

    Finally, consider this: The poverty level in the Hispanic community was 33 percent in 2012. In 1970, the figure was 24.3 percent. Poverty is entrenched in the Hispanic community. Do we blame black culture? Latino culture?"
    I think that mostly it was the death of Free Market Capitalism and the freezing of economic mobility. I don't think that blacks were specifically targeted, but as happenstance of the initial statistics comprised a larger percentage. The freeze out of economic mobility then forces them and their posterity to wallow in poverty. It's mostly done so the rich cannot become poor.
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Research shows that black people also face hiring discrimination. Especially if the applicant has a common African American name like Tyrone or Shaniqua, they are less likely to be called in for an interview.

    I don't think the article is well rounded or balanced. Its not looking at all the possible explanations, but instead seeks to determine what black culture is and white culture is not.

    Other than prejudice and work related discrimination, why do we want to think black people are poor for reasons that are vastly different to white people living in poverty?

    Haven't most of us reached the point that race doesn't make us inherently different as people?



    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Now, I cherry picked this article, so before you say it's out of context, then "yes" I did not like or agree, at all, with certain aspects of its opinion. But it's an interesting piece, with good talking points.

    I believe, I actually made it more coherent and less bigoted, one way or the other.

    Personally, I think it's a little bit of all three and disagree with the author that it's strictly, option #3. And racism, often thrown around way too much is a notable participant, though existed much more in the past decades than now.


    Article: The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture

    "Here is what is beyond dispute: In 2012, 35 percent of blacks lived in poverty, compared to 13 percent of whites. In 1970, those rates were 33.6 percent and 10 percent, respectively. Poverty in the black community is higher, and has been consistently.

    There exist three options for that persistence, if we assume that culture might play a role.

    • There is something about black culture that prevents black Americans from escaping poverty. We'll call this the black culture option.
    • There is something about the culture of being poor that prevents the poor, regardless of race, from escaping poverty. We'll call this the culture-of-poverty option.
    • There are no internal cultural forces at play. We'll call this, partly for the sake of stirring the pot, the racism exists option.


    Put more simply, there are three options for why black people continue to experience higher levels of poverty: it's in part black people's fault, it's in part poor people's fault, and it's society's fault.

    The culture-of-poverty option

    Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the problem lies with the second option, that there is something about being poor that results in future generations being poor.

    If this culture exists, what are its components? Ryan's remarks offer one view: it involves "men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work, and so there is a real culture problem here that has to be dealt with." Or, put more crassly, parents who have been out of work take refuge in the welfare state, living on food stamps and government services, and their children learn that this is a viable means of survival.

    The paper [Reconsidering Culture and Poverty] surveys some of the best research evidence of the detrimental cultural outgrowths of concentrated urban poverty on parental expectations, sexual behavior, the willingness of students to engage in beneficial activities, and other things.

    The black culture option

    Perhaps another assumption is in order. Let's assume instead that the black culture option is the correct explanation.

    Paul Ryan got in trouble because he implied that the problem was, in short, laziness. Coates frames it loosely in similar terms "black people are less responsible, less moral, or less upstanding" which Chait quickly steps away from, preferring the gauzy expression "cultural norms that inhibited economic success." The paper cited by Chait indicates a number of very specific behaviorisms and attitudes, some of which he notes, but it also downplays the idea of "culture" as an organizing force.

    Not from article; but a section from Coates piece: Black People, Culture And Poverty - Ta-Nehisi Coates - The Atlantic

    We can train black youths, we can move their families to better neighborhoods, etc., but changing their way of thinking is not so easy. Evidence of this lies in the many "mobility" programs that move inner-city families to lower-poverty suburbs: Young women continue to have children out of wedlock and, inexplicably, the young men who move out return to their communities to commit crime! These patterns flummox researchers and, according to Wilson, they will continue to remain mysterious until we look at culture for an answer.

    I think it takes a real flight of fancy to dismiss the culture argument. If you are rich and you've been rich for generations, you almost certainly develop cultural habits. Likewise, if you're poor and you've been poor for generations, you do the same. If you've been wealthy for generations and you were suddenly asked to function in the ghetto, you may have problems because you didn't know the rules. You weren't acculturated. Likewise, if you're poor and you're trying to climb up the economic ladder, you may also have problems.

    The racism exists option

    Believing that black culture is primarily at fault means believing that black cultural attitudes are why the black unemployment rate has always been at least 50 percent higher than white unemployment. It likely means assuming that vague, hard-to-identify and complex cultural attitudes are responsible for most of the things on this bullet list: flat wages, higher rates of arrest for possession of marijuana, higher rates of incarceration, a greater likelihood of being arrested at school, a lower likelihood of being accepted to top-tier colleges.

    American history demonstrates countless examples of racist obstruction of black economic success. Ongoing examples show countless ways in which black Americans are still obstructed in the same way.

    African Americans deal with a unique set of durable circumstances that have festered and worsened over the last forty years." The dominant white culture articulated by Coates and that neglected those communities is the more obvious problem.

    Finally, consider this: The poverty level in the Hispanic community was 33 percent in 2012. In 1970, the figure was 24.3 percent. Poverty is entrenched in the Hispanic community. Do we blame black culture? Latino culture?"

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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Many societies have practiced polygamy and nomadism for many of the same, external reasons. It has nothing to do with genetics or inborn culture, but more to do with low birth rates, infertility, and inability to control or sustain resources. Diet, climate, and available resources play the biggest role in how humans survive and adapt.


    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    In tribal African societies, Males often have multiple partners and tend to be nomadic family partners. This, when translated into a western culture means many single mothers and limited father influence. After several generations of this pattern repeating itself and the nomadic lifestyle being limited by the "New" society and culture, a stagnant and dissatisfied male becomes the norm. The males in Black culture are responsible for most of the poverty....though the female no longer functions well either.

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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Single parent homes are becoming overall common. You can't complain that that is the black culture poverty trap.





    Quote Originally Posted by 24107 View Post
    Without a mother and father to raise you together, things get pretty bad.
    72% of black babies born to unwed moms; data revive debate - Houston Chronicle

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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Now, I cherry picked this article, so before you say it's out of context, then "yes" I did not like or agree, at all, with certain aspects of its opinion. But it's an interesting piece, with good talking points.

    I believe, I actually made it more coherent and less bigoted, one way or the other.

    Personally, I think it's a little bit of all three and disagree with the author that it's strictly, option #3. And racism, often thrown around way too much is a notable participant, though existed much more in the past decades than now.


    Article: The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture

    "Here is what is beyond dispute: In 2012, 35 percent of blacks lived in poverty, compared to 13 percent of whites. In 1970, those rates were 33.6 percent and 10 percent, respectively. Poverty in the black community is higher, and has been consistently.

    There exist three options for that persistence, if we assume that culture might play a role.

    • There is something about black culture that prevents black Americans from escaping poverty. We'll call this the black culture option.
    • There is something about the culture of being poor that prevents the poor, regardless of race, from escaping poverty. We'll call this the culture-of-poverty option.
    • There are no internal cultural forces at play. We'll call this, partly for the sake of stirring the pot, the racism exists option.


    Put more simply, there are three options for why black people continue to experience higher levels of poverty: it's in part black people's fault, it's in part poor people's fault, and it's society's fault.

    The culture-of-poverty option

    Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the problem lies with the second option, that there is something about being poor that results in future generations being poor.

    If this culture exists, what are its components? Ryan's remarks offer one view: it involves "men not working and just generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work, and so there is a real culture problem here that has to be dealt with." Or, put more crassly, parents who have been out of work take refuge in the welfare state, living on food stamps and government services, and their children learn that this is a viable means of survival.

    The paper [Reconsidering Culture and Poverty] surveys some of the best research evidence of the detrimental cultural outgrowths of concentrated urban poverty on parental expectations, sexual behavior, the willingness of students to engage in beneficial activities, and other things.

    The black culture option

    Perhaps another assumption is in order. Let's assume instead that the black culture option is the correct explanation.

    Paul Ryan got in trouble because he implied that the problem was, in short, laziness. Coates frames it loosely in similar terms — "black people are less responsible, less moral, or less upstanding" — which Chait quickly steps away from, preferring the gauzy expression "cultural norms that inhibited economic success." The paper cited by Chait indicates a number of very specific behaviorisms and attitudes, some of which he notes, but it also downplays the idea of "culture" as an organizing force.

    Not from article; but a section from Coates piece: Black People, Culture And Poverty - Ta-Nehisi Coates - The Atlantic

    We can train black youths, we can move their families to better neighborhoods, etc., but changing their way of thinking is not so easy. Evidence of this lies in the many "mobility" programs that move inner-city families to lower-poverty suburbs: Young women continue to have children out of wedlock and, inexplicably, the young men who move out return to their communities to commit crime! These patterns flummox researchers and, according to Wilson, they will continue to remain mysterious until we look at culture for an answer.

    I think it takes a real flight of fancy to dismiss the culture argument. If you are rich and you've been rich for generations, you almost certainly develop cultural habits. Likewise, if you're poor and you've been poor for generations, you do the same. If you've been wealthy for generations and you were suddenly asked to function in the ghetto, you may have problems because you didn't know the rules. You weren't acculturated. Likewise, if you're poor and you're trying to climb up the economic ladder, you may also have problems.

    The racism exists option

    Believing that black culture is primarily at fault means believing that black cultural attitudes are why the black unemployment rate has always been at least 50 percent higher than white unemployment. It likely means assuming that vague, hard-to-identify and complex cultural attitudes are responsible for most of the things on this bullet list: flat wages, higher rates of arrest for possession of marijuana, higher rates of incarceration, a greater likelihood of being arrested at school, a lower likelihood of being accepted to top-tier colleges.

    American history demonstrates countless examples of racist obstruction of black economic success. Ongoing examples show countless ways in which black Americans are still obstructed in the same way.

    African Americans deal with a unique set of durable circumstances that have festered and worsened over the last forty years." The dominant white culture articulated by Coates and that neglected those communities is the more obvious problem.

    Finally, consider this: The poverty level in the Hispanic community was 33 percent in 2012. In 1970, the figure was 24.3 percent. Poverty is entrenched in the Hispanic community. Do we blame black culture? Latino culture?"
    I have my own thoughts on this issue -- and it's sort of a combination of them all. First, I think our government rewards lack of initiative with welfare. Secondly, I think welfare has destroyed the black family. Thirdly, I think so-called spokespersons for the black community have brain-washed blacks into a false sense of entitlement and fostered a belief that racism is alive, well and rampant in the white community. Fourth, well, I could probably go on, but I don't feel like thinking that hard right now.

    Is it black culture? To some extent, it absolutely is. But the next question is how did black culture become what it is today?? And that is the fault of "the system" that fosters dependence. If LBJ didn't say, "We'll have those ******* voting for us for the next 100 years," what he MIGHT have said is, "Let's put together some down-and-dirty welfare for them, keep them in their place, and they'll still vote for us for the next hundred years."

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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by brothern View Post
    How is that not the worst idea in the world, Lizzie?

    Poverty increases crime. It impedes stable homes, and lessens children's well-beings and educational achievement. Poverty decreases life spans and general health, and increases things such as drug, tobacco and alcohol abuse. It sends out shock waves of social ills that have the tendency of destroying societies. The very most immediate effect of selfishness and removing aide to the needy would be a drastic increase in those social ills.

    In what sane world would you want to do that?
    In a world where laws are in place and enforceable. I know that it's not politically correct, and it's not pretty, but what we are dealing with is a entire culture of poor (of all colors) who think they are entitled just by birthright. The more you fund it, the more of it you create. We are moving backwards, not forward.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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