View Poll Results: The Source of Black Poverty?

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58. You may not vote on this poll
  • The culture-of-poverty option

    22 37.93%
  • The black culture option

    21 36.21%
  • The racism exists option

    11 18.97%
  • All three, with some lean towards 1 & 2

    8 13.79%
  • Any combo, including government

    16 27.59%
  • Other

    14 24.14%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: The Source of Black Poverty

  1. #41
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The only viable option is to do the same with poor, as you do with overgrown children who can't face the realities of adult life. Cut the apron strings and set them free to sink or swim. It's amazing what a taste of reality, and an actual necessity to rely on oneself can accomplish. People are much smarter and more resourceful than we give them credit for.
    who do you refer to when you say "we" ? as in we give them credit for.

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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It's the same as with any other group of poor. I came from poor and white, and for whatever reason, my parents and some of their siblings were driven to succeed against the culture they were raised in. They weren't comfortable in their poverty. They wanted out of it, by whatever means necessary, which meant hard work and a hard life. If we (as a society) make poverty comfortable, many people who live in poverty will stay there, as it is the path of least resistance. I'm not saying that there isn't an extra hurdle to jump, if you're a minority, but the willingness to do whatever it takes to succeed can easily overcome those hurdles.
    This is especially true if one's sub-culture teaches that it's not only good to remain poor, but that it's not your fault and another group owes you a living. The black sub-culture does all of this and it teaches blacks that trying to get out of the ghetto, trying to better yourself, is a bad thing and one to be punished. That's why other racial groups who start out in the ghetto don't tend to remain there very long, at least in general terms. You can draw some parallels to hillbilly culture and the like, but Asians, for example, aren't generally multi-generationally poor because their cultures tend to push for improvement.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    ok, i shall
    emerging from poverty is more difficult for blacks
    because of the legacy of racism
    the kind which causes the title of this thread about sources of poverty to be focused on black poverty, rather that of all races
    That's BS though, the legacy of racism has nothing to do with why blacks drop out of school, make bad decisions, get involved in drugs and gangs, end up in prison, etc. It's an excuse, the people involved with these things have no one to blame but themselves and their culture.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by hado117 View Post
    In every war on poverty its the poor who always lose. M. Wilde
    That's because virtually every war on poverty is not fought by the poor, but by the well-off on their behalf. So long as the poor are not personally invested in bettering their own situation, they will never succeed.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  5. #45
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Stupid black people! They should just try harder!















  6. #46
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Race, or black culture, or anything else is not the problem. Every poor community of every race has lower drop out rates, bad decisions, gangs, drugs, jail ect. That is a bi product of poverty. Our society is set up so that the poor stay poor. There are different degrees of poverty and there is always the rare person who rises above it but that is not the norm. these things that certain people blame for poverty or keeping people in poverty like drugs really don't offer much different of an outcome than working a menial job for scraps and still staying in poverty. The idea that black people have it worse or some other crap is nothing but BS either. Poor is poor. poor white people, or poor brown people dont have any advantages that poor black people dont and rich black kids and rich white kids all have the same benefits. Ignoring the real issue and blaming racism hasn't worked and won't.
    I'm for truth, no matter who tells it. I'm for justice, no matter who it is for or against. I'm a human being, first and foremost, and as such I'm for whoever and whatever benefits humanity as a whole.


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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Why would civilian black Americans model from African black savages?
    Cultural conditioning over thousands of years...these things do not simply go away overnight.
    Illusionary

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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    The responses to threads like this are so predictable as most of them tend to follow the common narratives about black Americans that permeate society. I suppose I could waste my intellectual energy on explaining the complexity of the issue that is "black poverty", but it's such a fruitless effort. If people want to understand the issue, then there is plenty of easily accessible research available for them. But here's the problem, people don't want to understand the issue. People want to believe in narratives of the welfare queen, the violent black man, colorblindness, meritocracy and whatever other story (read: myth) white people have crafted in order to make themselves feel better about their role in the oppression of black Americans and hide, from themselves, the reality of how pervasive racism and its effects still are in our current society.

    The bottom line is that any explanation that concludes the position of the black population in American society is a function of some deficiency of blacks and "black culture" is racist. Even further, those who advocate that explanation are racists and those who persistently remain silent in the face of that explanation are cowards.

  9. #49
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    The only viable option is to do the same with poor, as you do with overgrown children who can't face the realities of adult life. Cut the apron strings and set them free to sink or swim. It's amazing what a taste of reality, and an actual necessity to rely on oneself can accomplish. People are much smarter and more resourceful than we give them credit for.
    And when you cut off the basics, they can be much more dangerous than you can imagine. You don't create a large welfare state, offer very little income opportunities or means of survival, then suddenly cut off all funding. The rioting mobs would rival anything seen in modern history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I'm sorry - is poverty not the lowest common denominator? If you're asking why anyone of average means is broke, then I don't have the first damn clue.
    Accrediting all classes of people of having an average means is disingenuous.

    Quote Originally Posted by CycloneWanderer View Post
    The writer does scant little to build a middle ground between the ideas expressed in those quotes. He really doesn't even seem to acknowledge any exists when describing the "black culture" option. For that reason, I would guess the purpose of the article is not to build understanding but to persuade.
    I agree, that's why I edited much of the original article. If the negative cultural differences in our society are addressed, in an unbiased and academic manner, there is a far better chance of understanding and addressing them.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  10. #50
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    Re: The Source of Black Poverty

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I think it makes some good points, however, my issue is that the "black culture" and "poor culture" options are viewed as separate and divorced. My issue with the (generally conservative) assertion that black culture is to blame for lack of black progress is that that view tends put culture in a vacuum - in other words, there is something specific about black people and their culture that is holding them back, rather than the view that any race that has gone through what blacks have gone through in American history would likely be facing the same situation.
    That's sort of a non-falsifiable thesis, given that no race was targeted so thoroughly for terrorism. However, if you wanted a parallel, the closest you could come to would probably be Asians: imported for use in dirty, manual labor, and generally treated as less than human.

    Culture does not exist in a vacuum independent of history - culture is wrapped in history.


    As for the OP, Charles Murray laid out the numbers in Coming Apart : It is Culture of Poverty. The figures pretty much track each other regardless of what race you are in, if you make culturally poor choices, you have roughly the same likelihood of being poor socioeconomically as well. A larger portion of the African American populace has simply institutionalized some of these poor culture choices (single parenthood, unfinished education), due not a little to the incentives that they were offered to do so by our government. That, unfortunately, often confuses the conversation, where people mistake a preponderance of result for a cause or a focus.

    There is indeed racism, however, presence of one factor does not mean that others are not predominate. Businesses and organizations actively seek out high-performing black individuals to promote because it makes them less vulnerable to attack. Additionally, there is a wealth of programs and funds largely aimed at shifting blacks up the socioeconomic ladder (college scholarships, for example. There are no "historically white colleges" anymore, but we do have "historically black" colleges) that do not exist for other ethnicities. So there are strong mitigants to that as a driver.
    Last edited by cpwill; 04-02-14 at 02:12 PM.

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