View Poll Results: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine now?

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  • Fight

    5 33.33%
  • Flee

    1 6.67%
  • Capitulate

    3 20.00%
  • Stick it out

    4 26.67%
  • Other

    2 13.33%
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Thread: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

  1. #11
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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    IF this continues, expect to see more and more Finlandization in Eastern Europe.
    I agree. I would not be surprised if the Baltic nations and Poland go "Finland"- probably with US and German assistance in the way of weapons subsidies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    The problem here is that they have not been happy so far.
    Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Georgia, now Ukraine.
    True, but I think the Russians have also been pretty calculating. They have only moved when they had an overwhelming military advantage against a very weak opponent.

    My guess is that Russia is really a paper tiger and that this is masked by Putins chess and poker skills. Sure, the Russians would fight in defense of their homeland, but my guess is that very few of their units are truly ready for offensive combat (neither is their economy) and that it would not take much of a "Finland" style defensive posture to deter them.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 03-26-14 at 11:29 PM.

  2. #12
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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Clearly, with their country invaded, their navy seized or destroyed, and chaos growing, the leader of Ukraine could declare martial law and combined with being commander of the military take any action. Assume you had total power to make all decisions, what would you do?

    Fight Russia with everything you got. If so, how?

    Capitulate. Realize there is no way to win and turn all of Ukraine over to Russia to spare lives, conceding all Ukraineans are again defeated and subjugated people?

    Flee. Find another country as a safe haven and get your family, your friends and you and get out of there?

    Stick it out. Just ride the wave however it goes?
    Fight--but only if Ukraine is invaded beyond Crimea. Keep mobilizing troops, dispersing and activating the air defense grid, try and get as much equipment repatriated from Crimea as possible, keep trying to source equipment for repairs, bring in trainers, and generally be ready with corps sized formations in eastern Ukraine for a showdown. The goal should be to make an invasion as costly as possible while attaching yourself closer and closer to NATO and the EU. Unfortunately the President hasn't done much to reassure Kiev of our willingness to back them, and the European powers have done even less.

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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    I would apply for immediate membership in NATO, and request military assistance for training, and a cross-basing agreement.

    Get as many NATO countries to cohabitate their bases as possible, and arrange for a NATO military exercise along the borders with Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, and Romania. This is on the far side of the country from Russia, and each of the countries I mentioned is also a member of NATO.

    Russia could not say jack-squat, and they will quickly get the message. They are willing to take on single countries who are on their own, but there is no way they are going to risk taking on NATO.
    I've been saying this from day one. We should have secured an invitation from the Ukrainian government for military exercises and the deployment of troops to Kiev and Odessa in an effort to create a maximum limit of potential Russian advance and stiffen the government.

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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Fight--but only if Ukraine is invaded beyond Crimea. Keep mobilizing troops, dispersing and activating the air defense grid, try and get as much equipment repatriated from Crimea as possible, keep trying to source equipment for repairs, bring in trainers, and generally be ready with corps sized formations in eastern Ukraine for a showdown. The goal should be to make an invasion as costly as possible while attaching yourself closer and closer to NATO and the EU. Unfortunately the President hasn't done much to reassure Kiev of our willingness to back them, and the European powers have done even less.
    The problem here is that with active and reserve combined, the Ukraine has just a little over 1 million military personnel, only 90,000 on active duty.

    Russia on the other hand has over 700,000 on active duty, and a combined military of around 3 million people.

    Without assistance, there is no way they can hold off against Russia. No more then Kuwait could hold off Iraq, or Poland could hold off Germany.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I've been saying this from day one. We should have secured an invitation from the Ukrainian government for military exercises and the deployment of troops to Kiev and Odessa in an effort to create a maximum limit of potential Russian advance and stiffen the government.
    I agree completely with that. Since that hasn't happened that is why I think this was a secret done-deal between the US and Russia before it happened.

  6. #16
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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    I've been saying this from day one. We should have secured an invitation from the Ukrainian government for military exercises and the deployment of troops to Kiev and Odessa in an effort to create a maximum limit of potential Russian advance and stiffen the government.
    And once again, this all goes back to Russia.

    Back in 2008, the Ukraine and Georgia both held talks with NATO for membership. However, under pressure from Russia the Ukraine dropped the request. And now they are paying for it as Russia walks over them unimpeded.

    And this incident is far from over:

    Russia May Invade Eastern Ukraine, U.S. Intelligence Says - TIME
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    And once again, this all goes back to Russia.

    Back in 2008, the Ukraine and Georgia both held talks with NATO for membership. However, under pressure from Russia the Ukraine dropped the request. And now they are paying for it as Russia walks over them unimpeded.

    And this incident is far from over:

    Russia May Invade Eastern Ukraine, U.S. Intelligence Says - TIME
    What should we do about it?
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    The problem here is that with active and reserve combined, the Ukraine has just a little over 1 million military personnel, only 90,000 on active duty.

    Russia on the other hand has over 700,000 on active duty, and a combined military of around 3 million people.

    Without assistance, there is no way they can hold off against Russia. No more then Kuwait could hold off Iraq, or Poland could hold off Germany.

    Ukraine has one major weapons collection never mentioned. They have 4 active nuclear reactors, plus 16 shut down reactors and over 4 decades worth of radioactive waste from all 20. The border of the Ukraine is about 300 miles from Moscow. The "dirty bombs" from filled mortar shells to a deliberately caused meltdown when the wind is blowing towards Moscow is a horrific "nuclear" threat of turning Moscow and all of Western Russia into the cancer and birth defect capital of the world and making Moscow and Western Russia basically uninhabitable for decades. If 70% of your population base land is covered in radioactive dust, your coutnry did NOT win. even if Russia killed 100% of all Ukrainians, Russia still lost in relation to itself and the world.

    Overall, if Ukraine announced a "we will live free or die - and we will take as many with us as we can" attitude - plus making it clear that 40,000,000 Ukraine refuges are going to flee into Eastern and Western Europe - while creating an atmospheric radiation crisis 1000 times that of Chernobyl - plus threatening to blow all Russian gas and pipe lines and overall leaving nothing standing in Ukraine for Russia to even want anymore - would send such a panic thru all of Europe - West and East - plus Russia that they all would want this to end.

    If that was combined with having Ukraine officers remove their uniforms and fight as freedom fighters primarily with IEDs and sniper rifles - including within Russia - the goal of taking Ukraine and keeping Crimea would be so astronomically costly in money and lives - plus no reason to even want Ukraine anymore - quickly, all sorts of pressure and excuses would be given for Russia leaving Crimea.

    20 nuclear reactors. 30-40 decades of nuclear waste? On Russia's border? 300 miles from Moscow by land and wind? There is no defense against radioactive wind and radioactive dust layering the countryside, towns and cities for 500+ miles in every direction. In a sense, all of Ukraine is a gigantic dirty bomb that could massively devastate all of Europe and the majority of populated Russia. Plus what country wants 40,000,000 refuges due to Ukraine now uninhabitable? It would be the ultimate scorched earth tactic.

    Under "we will live free or die" combined with "we will take as many with us as we can" via radiation and destroy all infrastructure of Ukraine so the conquers gain nothing - is a winning threat (or tactic.) In one day, via radiation, Ukraine could kill 100,000,000 people. Some within a week. The rest over the next decade or 2.

    They won't do it of course, but that that is Ukraine's only possible military "winning" strategy. Announce either Russia leaves or we'll turn Western Russia and all of Europe into a radiation wasteland. There is no defense against it and all the tanks, planes and troops in the world - a Russian army of 10,000,000 plus all the forces of NATO too - couldn't do a damn thing about it.

    Such a threat, if put into place to carry out, would be the ultimate poker game.
    Last edited by joko104; 03-27-14 at 04:58 PM.

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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    I would apply for immediate membership in NATO, and request military assistance for training, and a cross-basing agreement.

    Get as many NATO countries to cohabitate their bases as possible, and arrange for a NATO military exercise along the borders with Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, and Romania. This is on the far side of the country from Russia, and each of the countries I mentioned is also a member of NATO.

    Russia could not say jack-squat, and they will quickly get the message. They are willing to take on single countries who are on their own, but there is no way they are going to risk taking on NATO.
    But equally so, I can't see NATO wanting to send thousands or millions to die against the Russians. Russia and NATO simply don't want to actually fight each-other, because while it's obvious that NATO, with three of the top five military powers in the world, would win, they would suffer horrendous casualties.

    And democracies in particular hate horrendous casualties.

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    Re: What would you do if you were the leader of Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    The problem here is that with active and reserve combined, the Ukraine has just a little over 1 million military personnel, only 90,000 on active duty.

    Russia on the other hand has over 700,000 on active duty, and a combined military of around 3 million people.

    Without assistance, there is no way they can hold off against Russia. No more then Kuwait could hold off Iraq, or Poland could hold off Germany.
    Poland was hit from both sides if I remember correctly - German and the USSR.

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