View Poll Results: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

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  • Yes, it was a coup

    16 47.06%
  • No, it was not a coup

    14 41.18%
  • Other

    4 11.76%
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Thread: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

  1. #21
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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    It's pretty much acknowledged that the "opposition",, not Yanukovych, was behind the snipers. As a matter of fact, the new head of Security Pruebly (sp) was in charge of the building that the snipers fired from. He has chosen not to investigate. Gee, I wonder why.
    Pretty much acknowledged by whom? The opposition to the opposition? The Russians? I'm pretty sure every western nation considers the opposite of your claim, but I could be wrong. Can you name a single democracy that acknowledges this?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I'm unclear - who are you claiming is a hypocrite, and why?
    All capitalist gangs fight one another, for profit, telling lies. Anyone who pretends one of them is 'right' is a hypocrite, obviously.

  3. #23
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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Konig View Post
    It was a coup. And this is not the first time the U.S. has backed a coup and supported the new, illegitimate government. The US is scolding Russia for alleged interference in the affairs in Crimea – and, at the same time, supports the Ukrainian nationalists who usurped power in Kiev, supports them with much more than friendly words and gestures.
    Do you equate "support" with "interfence"? That would be interesting - that would mean Canada and other western nations who support the Ukrainian nationalists in their desire not to be drawn back into the sphere of Russian dominance are as bad as the Russians.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Do you equate "support" with "interfence"? That would be interesting - that would mean Canada and other western nations who support the Ukrainian nationalists in their desire not to be drawn back into the sphere of Russian dominance are as bad as the Russians.
    The Russians did not much wrong. The nationalists in Kiev changed the status of Russian as a language in the Crimea and showed other acts hostile towards ethnic Russians. Those ethnics took a democratic vote and decided to join Russia. If Crimea stayed apart of Ukraine and didn't have Russian backing who knows what kind of bloodshed might have occurred.

    The U.S., on the other hand, agitated and encouraged the illegal overthrowing of a democratically elected government, violating international law and their own policy of no dealings with coup d'état governments. Why did the U.S. have to get involved, exactly? If Ukraine wanted to move closer to the Brussels and not the Kremlin then they wouldn't have elected an openly pro-Russia president in the first place. Ukrainian nationalists don't represent all of Ukraine, only about half, yet not enough to vote in a nationalist government, evidently.

  5. #25
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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Konig View Post
    The Russians did not much wrong. The nationalists in Kiev changed the status of Russian as a language in the Crimea and showed other acts hostile towards ethnic Russians. Those ethnics took a democratic vote and decided to join Russia. If Crimea stayed apart of Ukraine and didn't have Russian backing who knows what kind of bloodshed might have occurred.

    The U.S., on the other hand, agitated and encouraged the illegal overthrowing of a democratically elected government, violating international law and their own policy of no dealings with coup d'état governments. Why did the U.S. have to get involved, exactly? If Ukraine wanted to move closer to the Brussels and not the Kremlin then they wouldn't have elected an openly pro-Russia president in the first place. Ukrainian nationalists don't represent all of Ukraine, only about half, yet not enough to vote in a nationalist government, evidently.
    We can agree to disagree on who did what, when and how, but I hope we can agree that in a sovereign nation, where constitutional rules are in place governing such things as secession, it would be up to the central government, not a province, to sanction and authorize as legal such a vote and not the province itself. The very fact that Russia recognized the vote as legal and moved to legalize Crimea becoming part of the Russian federation would or should indicate that Russia did plenty wrong.

    Here in Canada, we're used to discussions by separatists in the province of Quebec - we have very specific legislation as well as Supreme Court rulings on what constitutes a legal vote to secede. I presume Ukraine has the same. Perhaps your home country of Denmark, likewise. How would you feel if the island on which Copenhagen rests decided to secede and join Sweden without any approval or sanction of such a move by the rest of Denmark? Likewise, in the US, if Texas as an example voted to secede, the federal government would not allow them to do so on their own initiative - the republic would determine the outcome. Why should that principle be any different in Ukraine?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    The whole Crimean crisis has its roots in the ouster of former Ukrainian President Yanukovych. The Ukrainian parliament, with the support of Yanukovych's old Party of Regions, voted to impeach Yanukovych. They had a majority, but not the strict percentage (75%) required by the Ukrainian constitution to impeach their president. Nevertheless, they made motions to replace Yanukovych, motions which were accelerated by his fleeing the country into Russia.

    Was this removal of an elected official an illegitimate coup, or was it a revolution that was acceptable given the circumstances?
    When he "fled" to Russia to coordinate a Russian conquest of Ukraine it confirmed that his removable was a matter of national imperative and, if possible, they should capture and hang him for treason.
    Last edited by joko104; 03-22-14 at 04:34 PM.

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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Why should that principle be any different in Ukraine?
    Because there was a real threat to the ethnic Russians of the Crimea. I believe that separationist movements where those involved are under a real, perceivable threat have the right to break away. I don't see how the U.S., EU, or any body can deny this right. I for one value culture and surely you do too. The right of a culture to preserve its language, traditions, and people cannot be understated. If Quebec feels that its culture, ethno-linguistic tradition is at risk, then there's an argument to be made. I'm not too versed in the issue to support that movement though.

    Denmark is ethnically homogeneous so it is incomparable, and has no such ethnic separationist movements. The only such movement would be in the region Bornholm, but that's more historical than anything else.

    Ukraine is torn between ethnic Russians and Ukrainians. So no, I don't think "the republic" should determine the outcome when it's clearly partisan and deeply divided. Almost the entire East region supported Yanukovych and the West supported nationalists and/or Europe-focused parties. The tyranny of the majority could jeopardize the survival of a people, and I don't think that's morally justifiable.

  8. #28
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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    I don't view it as a coup per se. As I see it, Yanukovych abdicated and then was replaced, although it is unclear whether the removal procedure satisfies the constitution.


    The vote to remove Viktor Yanukovych as president of Ukraine occurred on 22 February 2014. The vote tally was 328-YES, 0-NO, 0-ABSTAIN. By the Constitution, a majority vote of 75% in parliament is required to remove a sitting president.

    328 YES votes (100% of those voting) constitute 73% of 450 MPs. 338 YES votes would constitute the required 75%. So then, where are the missing votes?

    I'll show you;

    Party of Regions
    Number of MPs: 134
    For: 36 / Against: 0 / Abstaining: 0 / Not Voting: 2 / Absent: 96

    Independent
    Number of MPs: 117
    For: 99 / Against: 0 / Abstaining: 0 / Not Voting: 1 / Absent: 17

    Fatherland
    Number of MPs: 88
    For 86 / Against: 0 / Abstaining: 0 / Not Voting: 2 / Absent: 0

    UDAR
    Number of MPs: 42
    For 41 / Against: 0 / Abstaining: 0 / Not Voting 0 / Absent: 1

    Svoboda
    Number of MP's: 36
    For 36 / Against: 0 / Abstaining: 0 / Not Voting 0 / Absent: 0

    Communist Party
    Number of MPs: 32
    For 30 / Against: 0 / Abstaining: 0 / Not Voting: 1 / Absent: 1

    Постанова про усунення і результати голосування по ній на сайті верховної ради України

    No MP has come forward and claimed s/he was excluded from voting. At a later date, the same parliament voted to refer Yanukovych to the International Criminal Court.

    It seems to me that if you want your vote to count one way or another, you actually have to show up and cast your vote.

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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Konig View Post
    Because there was a real threat to the ethnic Russians of the Crimea.
    I've spent quite a bit of time in Crimea. The suggestion of a threat to or the oppression of the majority ethnic Russian population in Crimea is an utter fabrication.

  10. #30
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    Re: Was the overthrow of Yanukovych a coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    I've spent quite a bit of time in Crimea. The suggestion of a threat to or the oppression of the majority ethnic Russian population in Crimea is an utter fabrication.
    Thank you.

    Declaring that Ukraine is establishing a national language is not oppression meriting another country seizing the territory. It is an absurd claim.

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