View Poll Results: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight

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  • I would change my mind.

    0 0%
  • I would reconsider.

    2 8.00%
  • I would remain steadfast in my current position.

    20 80.00%
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    3 12.00%
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Thread: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

  1. #41
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    It would depend on the situation, and whether our European allies are steadfast in wanting to prevent a Russian takeover of Ukraine itself. Ukraine isn't a member of NATO, so no NATO action would be imposed, but if our major European allies would suffer economic hardship and/or feel threatened by Russia marching to establish the new Greater Russia of Putin's dreams, then I would approve of supporting them economically, diplomatically and if needed, militarily.

  2. #42
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Just for the sake of conversation...

    If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight, and it became a literal battle between the Ukrainians and the Russians, how would that affect your opinion regarding military involvement (by the US)?

    Would you be willing to reconsider, or would you remain steadfast?
    Since they gave up their bases the last few days and walked out toward home without a shot, I can see how well any fight against the Russians will go. Yet, they will do well in NATO with the other "joiners" feeding at the US trough. They might not fight, but its always good to have another few auxiliaries cheering you on while you dig. Gotta love NATO. *winks*

  3. #43
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I agree, but I would hesitate to give the Russians a blank check.

    We should not get involved militarily in any Urkaine vs Russia conflict unless the Russians threaten the survival of Ukraine as an independent nation and Ukrainians as a sovereign people.

    Occupying Crimea does not threaten Ukrainian survival as a nation. Forcibly annexing large portions of eastern Ukraine might, forcibly reincoorperating the entire Ukrainian nation into a reconstitution of the Sovet system sans communism would.
    There is, IMO, practically zero chance that Putun would ever be so stupid as to attack the Ukraine. He is ruthless and cruel...not dumb.

    What on Earth would Russia gain? They would immediately lose almost ALL their oil/gas revenues (which their economy depends on). A war would cost tons of money Russia cannot afford to lose (especially if their natural resources revenue stream is cut off). Ukraine is a mess, so far in debt they are begging the world for help. It makes zero sense.

    Besides, I think now that Kiev was dumb enough to reduce the rights of Russian-speakers in the Ukraine (mixed in with the economic mess it is - gas prices might rise by 40% it was recently announced), I think it is quite possible that the Russian-speaking/supporting eastern Ukraine might want to join the Crimea as part of Russia in the next few months/years without Russia fring a shot.

    http://www.platts.com/latest-news/na...tisfy-21366832
    Last edited by DA60; 03-21-14 at 05:51 AM.

  4. #44
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Steadfast. It's right in their backyard, for God's sake. Would anyone want to go toe to toe with the Russian military over this? You'd have to be crazy.
    In the Russians backyard. The logistics alone would be a nightmare/almost impossible. The Russians can pour as much troops as they want into there. They have an easy task of bringing in as many tanks, planes, attack helicopters, missiles etc. etc. etc. etc. into the region while the US/West has to airlift or transport it over many nations/miles to even get close to there.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

  5. #45
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    In the Russians backyard. The logistics alone would be a nightmare/almost impossible. The Russians can pour as much troops as they want into there. They have an easy task of bringing in as many tanks, planes, attack helicopters, missiles etc. etc. etc. etc. into the region while the US/West has to airlift or transport it over many nations/miles to even get close to there.
    *winks*...I suspect memories have faltered, reading of the fighting on the Eastern Front during WW2 is no longer of any value, or there are a lot of young people with no memory of how the Russians can fight on their own homeland contributes to talk of a need to go to ground with them over Ukraine.

    In actuality, it would be the most horrifying experience, even without nuclear weapons, that the West has suffered since World War 2, and most definitely the most bitter fight for Americans since the Civil War, or worse. Then again, we would have to get there to even deploy, and I don't think the Russians are going to just sit there like Saddam did in Iraq, just watching us build up what meager forces we can muster against their massive armor divisions. That is tank country. "Can I get a shout-out for Kursk redo?" But, perhaps not. The Germans, during WW2, in losing that battle, had an armor force of over 2000 tanks, and more than 790,000 men in three separate Army groups. We don't have anywhere near such a force to deploy close enough to even see a Russian from afar, let alone be able to shoot at them. Interesting sandbox discussion though.

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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Destroy the black sea fleet by air, bring in the 7th to the ports, launch from carrier groups to eliminate ground forces....and hope Putin isn't crazy enough to nuke his own backyard.

  7. #47
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    A direct US military intervention in Ukraine has never been nor will be on the table.

  8. #48
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by SayMyName View Post
    *winks*...I suspect memories have faltered, reading of the fighting on the Eastern Front during WW2 is no longer of any value, or there are a lot of young people with no memory of how the Russians can fight on their own homeland contributes to talk of a need to go to ground with them over Ukraine.

    In actuality, it would be the most horrifying experience, even without nuclear weapons, that the West has suffered since World War 2, and most definitely the most bitter fight for Americans since the Civil War, or worse. Then again, we would have to get there to even deploy, and I don't think the Russians are going to just sit there like Saddam did in Iraq, just watching us build up what meager forces we can muster against their massive armor divisions. That is tank country. "Can I get a shout-out for Kursk redo?" But, perhaps not. The Germans, during WW2, in losing that battle, had an armor force of over 2000 tanks, and more than 790,000 men in three separate Army groups. We don't have anywhere near such a force to deploy close enough to even see a Russian from afar, let alone be able to shoot at them. Interesting sandbox discussion though.
    As an avid student of the second world war I do know that. Russia is one of those empires who has hardly ever fallen to anyone. Hitler tried it and failed, Napoleon tried it and failed, King Charles of Sweden tried it and failed. Russia is one tough nut to crack/defeat and with loads of nuclear weapons, troops, etc. etc.

    Sure, if you would pool all the US armed forces into one great army Russia would have a difficult time without nuclear weapons but the odds of the US being able to put all that military force on the ground near Russia will be almost impossible. And if the US would amass such an army in that region, what would their biggest Geopolitical foe do (China).
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

  9. #49
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by tecoyah View Post
    Destroy the black sea fleet by air, bring in the 7th to the ports, launch from carrier groups to eliminate ground forces....and hope Putin isn't crazy enough to nuke his own backyard.
    First, that would be an act of war. Secondly, waging an attack on a Russian naval base (with their defenses) which lies real close to the Russian mother land (with their military basis in that region, more than 300 available fighter jets) does not seem that smart. Also, the Russian will defend themselves against attack with all the missiles at their disposal.

    Who knows, there are a lot of Russian SAM installations near Sochi, how difficult would it be to transport those to the Crimea? Who knows, maybe they are already on their way to the area as we speak.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    First, that would be an act of war. Secondly, waging an attack on a Russian naval base (with their defenses) which lies real close to the Russian mother land (with their military basis in that region, more than 300 available fighter jets) does not seem that smart. Also, the Russian will defend themselves against attack with all the missiles at their disposal.

    Who knows, there are a lot of Russian SAM installations near Sochi, how difficult would it be to transport those to the Crimea? Who knows, maybe they are already on their way to the area as we speak.
    My scenario was purely sarcastic.

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