View Poll Results: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight

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Thread: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

  1. #11
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    I may not fully understand what the arrangement is here.

    Did we not ask the Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons in exchange for our security guarantees? If so, don't we have an obligation, whether we like it or not?

    Won't our decision affect the treaties that have kept a number of countries out of the nuclear weapons business? If Ukraine had kept their nukes, I think Russia would not have been so bold. Now, who won't want nukes as a defensive measure? Obviously, the US treaties mean nothing.

    So, sure, it won't exactly benefit us to join in but won't it cost us dearly in the lng term?

    If I misunderstand, just explain it to me, don't "yell" at me.

  2. #12
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    "Declaring" war is so early 20th century. Do try to keep up with the times.
    Well... people say eastern europe is 50 years behind the west so we're still in the clear.

  3. #13
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I would want us to pour shoulderable surface to air missiles, anti-mechanization missiles and rockets, a short number of high altitude surface to air portable missiles, a steady flow of fuel, food and munitions, night vision equipment and piles of 50 caliber sniper rifles.

    I would also put USA troops in bordering countries to limit the Russian military advancing beyond the Ukraine, plus provide all intelligence and logistical support and hospital services, and would supply civilian refugee camps in the bordering country so the Ukraine military would not be saddled with having to defend their families.

    My goal would make this fight as costing to Russia as possible. But I would not put USA troops up directly against Russian troops. If Russia were to come across the border at USA troops, then it would be Russia going to war against the USA.

    So your solution is provoke Russia but you do not want American troops directly against Russian troops? Thats like sending in someone to call one of the meanest bikers the worst name possible and expecting to not get punched or worse.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #14
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    It is you who does not know what it means.

    coup d'état
    'n, pl coups d'état (ˈkuːz deɪˈtɑː; French ku deta)
    1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a sudden violent or illegal seizure of government'

    coup d'etat - definition of coup d'etat by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    Show me where in the Ukrainian constitution that it allows for a coup d'état that overthrows a legally voted government to decide who should govern?

    The answer is...you cannot.

    Then, by Ukrainian law, it is illegal.
    Last edited by DA60; 03-20-14 at 05:38 PM.

  5. #15
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    I don't think anyone is ready for more military conflict. It seems Ukraine is on it's own for now.

    However, as was proven effective in the past, the West should seek to curtail the blind ambitions of Putin through economic means. Such an effort ended the USSR, and a much weaker and less viable Russia would be an even easier target.
    Actually I think many in the EU might take up arms if they feared that those vital pipelines running through Ukraine were going to be interrupted for any reason, but I think they'd take up arms against the Ukrainians as well if they thought they were the cause of the interruption.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

  6. #16
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    I may not fully understand what the arrangement is here.

    Did we not ask the Ukraine to give up their nuclear weapons in exchange for our security guarantees? If so, don't we have an obligation, whether we like it or not?

    Won't our decision affect the treaties that have kept a number of countries out of the nuclear weapons business? If Ukraine had kept their nukes, I think Russia would not have been so bold. Now, who won't want nukes as a defensive measure? Obviously, the US treaties mean nothing.

    So, sure, it won't exactly benefit us to join in but won't it cost us dearly in the lng term?

    If I misunderstand, just explain it to me, don't "yell" at me.
    Well color me confused. If we forced them to give up their nukes, and promised to protect them, then why were Russian troops and Russian ships and Russian stations in Crimea????? This makes no sense. Seems the facts on the ground already belie any previous treaty, because to my knowledge except for legislators stirring up the protesters we had no boots on that ground or in Ukraine mainland.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

  7. #17
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    I doubt Ukraine will ever declare war on Russia.

    Assume they will do. It would be so stupid for US to go to war with Russia just for Crimea piece.
    Envidia te mata !!!

    The blind leading the blind !!!


  8. #18
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    Actually I think many in the EU might take up arms if they feared that those vital pipelines running through Ukraine were going to be interrupted for any reason, but I think they'd take up arms against the Ukrainians as well if they thought they were the cause of the interruption.
    You may be correct. If interrupted, I'm sure Putin would try to make it look like Ukraine was a fault, even though the flow is controlled by Russia. It seems to me the death of others is not something Putin cares anything about.

    On the other hand, the resurrection of the USSR will likely encourage most to make the sacrifice needed to stop it.

  9. #19
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    Well color me confused. If we forced them to give up their nukes, and promised to protect them, then why were Russian troops and Russian ships and Russian stations in Crimea????? This makes no sense. Seems the facts on the ground already belie any previous treaty, because to my knowledge except for legislators stirring up the protesters we had no boots on that ground or in Ukraine mainland.
    When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the newly independent Ukraine had on its territory what was the third largest strategic nuclear weapons arsenal in the world. It was larger than those of Britain, France, and China combined. On June 1, 1996 Ukraine became a non-nuclear nation when it sent the last of its 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads to Russia for dismantling.[1] The first shipment of nuclear weapons from Ukraine to Russia (by train) was in March 1994.[2] In return for giving up its nuclear weapons, Ukraine, the United States of America, Russia, and the United Kingdom signed the 1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, pledging to respect Ukraine territorial integrity, a pledge that was arguably broken by Russia's 2014 invasion of Crimea.[3] However, there is a dispute whether Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is anything more than a general statement of intent, lacking the rigor of an international treaty and accompanying ratification procedure.
    Using your logic, any country we have one soldier in loses their treaty rights with anyone else. Is that how it works?

  10. #20
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    Re: If the Ukrainians were to take up arms and fight...

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    Using your logic, any country we have one soldier in loses their treaty rights with anyone else. Is that how it works?
    "One soldier"??? Come on now, you aren't usually prone to such foolish exaggerations. Nor did I present such a foolish exaggeration.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

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