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The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

Is the CIA patriotic and trustworthy?

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
DaveFagan said:
If the CIA has 200,000 employees and only 10,000 in crappy sections of the World and the remaining 190,000 desk jockeying in the DC/Virginia area, then you are only speaking for a very small minority of the Agency.
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That's an interesting set of figures. Where did you get it from?
 
The more far-reaching questions in this thread aside, we should take a hardline stance on torture in this country. We do not allow it. We do not allow it to be used on our people. We do not allow it to be used by our people. Americans should not ever be responsible for or condone the use of torture, and we absolutely shouldn't try to make excuses by pretending that some forms of torture don't count.
 
I do think as a whole the CIA is patriotic but not trustworthy because they are running secret ops all around the world with little or no full supervision and with methods that are not in line with the morals and the legal principles of the USA.

Also they are not that good at doing what they are supposed to do, through a failed policy view (the enemy of my enemy is my friend/ally) they helped, to some degree, create one of the worst enemies in the modern times (Osama Bin Laden/Al Qaida-Taliban). Supporting groups in Afghanistan to curb the Russian attempts to vanquish the enemies of the Russian supported Afghanistan government led the CIA to continue the suffering of the Afghani people and has contributed in emboldening Osama in his anti-democratic Islamic extremist actions/terrorist attacks against the Russians.

What the CIA and other organizations like that should realize that it is too simple to think that they enemy of your enemy is your friend/ally because that is not always the truth.
 
I voted no for multiple reasons. One, I don't see much of anything that the CIA has done as either patriotic or trustworthy. From funding and training Osama bin Laden to a disinformation campaign. Not really seeing that as either.
Two, kept us mighty safe from all the attacks even in this century that obviously were just totally fake right?
Three, in what way is torture and other amazing illegal acts patriotic?
Four, just read deathbed confessions of former CIA agents.

I don't wanna sound too conspiracy theorist here but I wouldn't trust the CIA as much as I trust a banker or a politician and I don't trust them in the least bit.
 
Peter King said:
I do think as a whole the CIA is patriotic but not trustworthy because they are running secret ops all around the world with little or no full supervision and with methods that are not in line with the morals and the legal principles of the USA.

Also they are not that good at doing what they are supposed to do, through a failed policy view (the enemy of my enemy is my friend/ally) they helped, to some degree, create one of the worst enemies in the modern times (Osama Bin Laden/Al Qaida-Taliban). Supporting groups in Afghanistan to curb the Russian attempts to vanquish the enemies of the Russian supported Afghanistan government led the CIA to continue the suffering of the Afghani people and has contributed in emboldening Osama in his anti-democratic Islamic extremist actions/terrorist attacks against the Russians.

What the CIA and other organizations like that should realize that it is too simple to think that they enemy of your enemy is your friend/ally because that is not always the truth.
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The CIA (and really our whole government) still work with Al Qaeda. We are currently working with them in Syria. And if we happen to put boots on the ground in 2015 (I caught wind of a plan to do this from someone in the military) we will be fighting alongside them
 
DaveFagan said:
In my mind I think Watergate, October Surprise, Iran/Contra, BCCI, Mena Arkansas, black sites and torture, Panama/Noriega, etc. These are just the large visible issues and many, many more must have been hidden or they are completely inept.
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I'm giving you a bunch of flack on the forum because you equate the USA government doing evil with somehow making Russia good. When it goes to war, Russia is far more genocidal than the USA. Russia is less just in war, in government, in treatment of prisoners etc - and Russia is very racist vastly beyond that in the USA.

SO... if you were ONLY cursing the CIA etc without converting that to making Russia the good guys I'd probably lighten up.

But the other aspect is the history of the human race, everywhere, all across time, is a history of extreme brutality, sadism and war - more wars and genocides than history can even count. So the REAL question is where does the "be nice" goal meet "live in reality?" Where is the real fulcrum point between right and wrong? Being pure good leads to pure subjugation and slavery. So does pure evil.

The USA is a wealthy country. This is not the result of being ethically pure. No country in existence has come into existence - nor could - upon the standards of purity.

When my wife her business (a long atypical story) it included selling certain chemicals that are legal to sell but also easily refined to high enough concentrations to make chemical explosives. I think people would be stunned as to how many wannabe terrorists there are - usually lone wolf types or some bizarre small group. 99% of the time they are caught before blowing up a subway or airliner or football game or mall. It is the "evil spying" on computers, the Internet, emails and tracing phone calls by the CIA/NSA/FBI combined with industry involvement that prevents it.

To the contrast, if this was not done and a bomb killed a bunch of Americans then people would be screaming about why didn't government stop that from happening.

Virtually everything is measuring degrees of allowable grey area. Without a doubt, the USA government, military and intelligence community has does horrifically evil things. But as a stand-alone statement it doesn't mean much.
 
TheLastIndependent said:
The CIA (and really our whole government) still work with Al Qaeda. We are currently working with them in Syria. And if we happen to put boots on the ground in 2015 (I caught wind of a plan to do this from someone in the military) we will be fighting alongside them
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Nothing new there. The USA and Soviets fought Germany together. Then returned to being adversaries.
 
joko104 said:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Nothing new there. The USA and Soviets fought Germany together. Then returned to being adversaries.
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We did more than not fight with them. We both created their ability to even be there (The Bolshevik Revolution could not have happened without the US in World War I) and then hid the fact that Stalin was more body than Hitler in World War II.
 
TheLastIndependent said:
We did more than not fight with them. We both created their ability to even be there (The Bolshevik Revolution could not have happened without the US in World War I) and then hid the fact that Stalin was more body than Hitler in World War II.
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A czarist AND a Nazi proponent too? :roll:
 
shrubnose said:
The CIA has done some good stuff and some very bad stuff.

It deserves a pat on the back for the good stuff and a kick in the butt for the very bad stuff.
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That's exactly my point.
 
joko104 said:
I'm giving you a bunch of flack on the forum because you equate the USA government doing evil with somehow making Russia good. When it goes to war, Russia is far more genocidal than the USA. Russia is less just in war, in government, in treatment of prisoners etc - and Russia is very racist vastly beyond that in the USA.

SO... if you were ONLY cursing the CIA etc without converting that to making Russia the good guys I'd probably lighten up.

But the other aspect is the history of the human race, everywhere, all across time, is a history of extreme brutality, sadism and war - more wars and genocides than history can even count. So the REAL question is where does the "be nice" goal meet "live in reality?" Where is the real fulcrum point between right and wrong? Being pure good leads to pure subjugation and slavery. So does pure evil.

The USA is a wealthy country. This is not the result of being ethically pure. No country in existence has come into existence - nor could - upon the standards of purity.

When my wife her business (a long atypical story) it included selling certain chemicals that are legal to sell but also easily refined to high enough concentrations to make chemical explosives. I think people would be stunned as to how many wannabe terrorists there are - usually lone wolf types or some bizarre small group. 99% of the time they are caught before blowing up a subway or airliner or football game or mall. It is the "evil spying" on computers, the Internet, emails and tracing phone calls by the CIA/NSA/FBI combined with industry involvement that prevents it.

To the contrast, if this was not done and a bomb killed a bunch of Americans then people would be screaming about why didn't government stop that from happening.

Virtually everything is measuring degrees of allowable grey area. Without a doubt, the USA government, military and intelligence community has does horrifically evil things. But as a stand-alone statement it doesn't mean much.
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The USA has and does profit handsomely from war. It's business as usual for CORPORATE USA. If you are a rascist and a warmonger, that is certainly your prerogative. Have at it. No thinking required! Russia is the good guy in this matter. The USA/CIA created the instability in Ukraine that forced Russia to take care of her people, and she did without killing over 100 people like the Maidan Opposition did.
 
DaveFagan said:
In law, we say that torture “taints” an investigation.
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You misunderstand. The premise of the "torture" was not investigation. Those subject to enhanced interrogation were known terrorists. There was no doubt, whatsoever, that these people had and would kill hundreds of people. They were interrogated for verifiable information. Torture for verifiable information does, and always will, work.

You're making the mistake of confusing torture for confession with torture for verifiable information. Basically, you're looking at the situation too simply and failing to comprehend the reality.
 
ecofarm said:
You misunderstand. The premise of the "torture" was not investigation. Those subject to enhanced interrogation were known terrorists. There was no doubt, whatsoever, that these people had and would kill hundreds of people. They were interrogated for verifiable information. Torture for verifiable information does, and always will, work.

You're making the mistake of confusing torture for confession with torture for verifiable information. Basically, you're looking at the situation too simply and failing to comprehend the reality.
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Torture and rendition are against the Geneva Conventions. English and Graner went to prison for torture that was documented as US gov't policy in Iraq, not Guantanamo. There's 6300 pages stilll stuck in Congress that are about torture, not CIA snooping. Also, you can not provide a credible link that any lives were saved by torture. That is one of the reasons the Congressional 6300 pages are stuck in limbo.
 
DaveFagan said:
English and Graner went to prison for torture that was documented as US gov't policy in Iraq, not Guantanamo.
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That's full of crap. They were convicted as the criminals they were.

Using criminals to indict a population is very low functionality.
 
ecofarm said:
That's full of crap. They were convicted as the criminals they were.

Using criminals to indict a population is very low functionality.
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They were doing CIA policy and their CIC, GWBUSH (the first torturer), didn't have the cojones to take the blame by standing up for his torturers. 6300 pages stuck in Congress tell teh story.
 
DaveFagan said:
The USA has and does profit handsomely from war. It's business as usual for CORPORATE USA. If you are a rascist and a warmonger, that is certainly your prerogative. Have at it. No thinking required! Russia is the good guy in this matter. The USA/CIA created the instability in Ukraine that forced Russia to take care of her people, and she did without killing over 100 people like the Maidan Opposition did.
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I think your ongoing praise in your messages of Russia confirms for me that your view is just racist Stormfront promotions - for which your messages read like some crazed militia member hording firearms and storing up food for the coming racial war you'd like to see in the USA.

You say Russia is the good guy because Putin announced he is going to relocation 100,000 original Tartar Muslims - and you cheer the current and past relocation and murders of non-whites by white Russians. Very despicable.
 
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DaveFagan said:
They were doing CIA policy and their CIC, GWBUSH (the first torturer), didn't have the cojones to take the blame by standing up for his torturers. 6300 pages stuck in Congress tell teh story.
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You're just indicting a population based on a few criminals. That's common garbage. Even children should know better.
 
ecofarm said:
You're just indicting a population based on a few criminals. That's common garbage. Even children should know better.
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He prefers Russian torture and killing little children - provided they aren't white children. His messages increasingly are just angry radical militia group talk. His messages are so extreme, so radically and rabidly anti-American beyond rational discussion and so extremely pro-Soviet Russia maybe the CIA is watching him and maybe should be.
 
joko104 said:
He prefers Russian torture and killing little children - provided they aren't white children. His messages increasingly are just angry radical militia group talk. His messages are so extreme, so radically and rabidly anti-American beyond rational discussion and so extremely pro-Soviet Russia maybe the CIA is watching him and maybe should be.
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Some people take the Unabomber's manifesto a bit too seriously.
 
Though the C.I.A. has a colorful and (extremely) controversial history, they nevertheless serve as a vitally important piece of U.S. national security. Patriotism is a given because they've signed up to safeguard America and her interests. Are they trustworthy? Is *any* clandestine intelligence agency/unit a beacon of unmitigated truth? Hardly, but that comes with the territory and the job.

Keep in mind: the Director of the C.I.A. is chosen by the President. That's important to remember when the C.I.A. is caught misbehaving. The Director of the C.I.A. gives marching orders and his subordinates march. The same applies between the President (or Chief of Staff/National Security Adviser who can speak for the President) and the C.I.A. Director.
 
99% of what the CIA does is simply gather information about what is happening around the world from ordinary sources like other countries newspapers, radio and television. If it did not do so, the government would have little idea what is happening in other countries.
 
joko104 said:
The USA has not been invaded. The CIA has done a good job.
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That's the standard?

You can do anything at all as long as the US is not invaded?

OK, so torture and killing infants is excused in the name of national security and protecting the "American way of life"...

tell me what's worth preserving in a middle ages culture?

The love of an agency that did not see the Berlin wall coming down, got it wrong in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and completely misread the Arab Spring....yeah, trust those guys to protect your ass...


Sure..now that's what historians will call an "advanced civilization"

and now you can reply with the justification that "everyone's doing it" and 911 and the rest of the "justifications"....
 
DaveFagan said:
Bullcrap! They've protected us from Honduras, Guatamala, El Salvador, Haiti, Granada, Panama, Nicaragua, Cuba and Venezuela. Right. Hot damn, but the perceived threat must be awesome. All that killing and all those drugs. Invasion and media generated hypothethical threats are made to generate business for the Military Offens Industry. Corporate welfare at its' finest.
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Don't forget that the CIA is primarily responsible for keeping America safe from Canadian back bacon and maple syrup, why else would they be bugging our phones?
 
joko104 said:
You certainly could relocate to another country if you think one is better. I think all in all the CIA has done a damn good job keeping Americans safe. I'm not sure where in it's policy manual its purpose is to keep other people safe. Can you quote that section?
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Love it or leave it?

What specifically can you name that has been soooo successful at keeping America "safe"? How they predicted and prevented the SECOND world trade center bombing by the same guy, different weapons?

Or is it the grand job they did in regime change in Ukraine? Libya? Arab spring?

anything they got right would help.....
 
I like how we have one guy claiming that the CIA knows and runs everything, and another claiming that the CIA can't tell its ass from a hand grenade.

Classic.
 
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