View Poll Results: Is the CIA patriotic and trustworthy?

Voters
37. You may not vote on this poll
  • YES

    10 27.03%
  • NO

    13 35.14%
  • Patriotic, not trustworthy

    11 29.73%
  • Trustworthy, not patriotic

    0 0%
  • Torture is illegal and they're hiding everything

    6 16.22%
  • Like Cops, they protect their own

    10 27.03%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 4 of 12 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 114

Thread: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

  1. #31
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    In my mind I think Watergate, October Surprise, Iran/Contra, BCCI, Mena Arkansas, black sites and torture, Panama/Noriega, etc. These are just the large visible issues and many, many more must have been hidden or they are completely inept.
    I'm giving you a bunch of flack on the forum because you equate the USA government doing evil with somehow making Russia good. When it goes to war, Russia is far more genocidal than the USA. Russia is less just in war, in government, in treatment of prisoners etc - and Russia is very racist vastly beyond that in the USA.

    SO... if you were ONLY cursing the CIA etc without converting that to making Russia the good guys I'd probably lighten up.

    But the other aspect is the history of the human race, everywhere, all across time, is a history of extreme brutality, sadism and war - more wars and genocides than history can even count. So the REAL question is where does the "be nice" goal meet "live in reality?" Where is the real fulcrum point between right and wrong? Being pure good leads to pure subjugation and slavery. So does pure evil.

    The USA is a wealthy country. This is not the result of being ethically pure. No country in existence has come into existence - nor could - upon the standards of purity.

    When my wife her business (a long atypical story) it included selling certain chemicals that are legal to sell but also easily refined to high enough concentrations to make chemical explosives. I think people would be stunned as to how many wannabe terrorists there are - usually lone wolf types or some bizarre small group. 99% of the time they are caught before blowing up a subway or airliner or football game or mall. It is the "evil spying" on computers, the Internet, emails and tracing phone calls by the CIA/NSA/FBI combined with industry involvement that prevents it.

    To the contrast, if this was not done and a bomb killed a bunch of Americans then people would be screaming about why didn't government stop that from happening.

    Virtually everything is measuring degrees of allowable grey area. Without a doubt, the USA government, military and intelligence community has does horrifically evil things. But as a stand-alone statement it doesn't mean much.

  2. #32
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastIndependent View Post
    The CIA (and really our whole government) still work with Al Qaeda. We are currently working with them in Syria. And if we happen to put boots on the ground in 2015 (I caught wind of a plan to do this from someone in the military) we will be fighting alongside them
    The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Nothing new there. The USA and Soviets fought Germany together. Then returned to being adversaries.

  3. #33
    Professor
    TheLastIndependent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Last Seen
    08-29-15 @ 11:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    1,545
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Nothing new there. The USA and Soviets fought Germany together. Then returned to being adversaries.
    We did more than not fight with them. We both created their ability to even be there (The Bolshevik Revolution could not have happened without the US in World War I) and then hid the fact that Stalin was more body than Hitler in World War II.
    "The trust of the innocent is the liar's most useful tool." : Stephen King

    "Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." Thomas Jefferson

  4. #34
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastIndependent View Post
    We did more than not fight with them. We both created their ability to even be there (The Bolshevik Revolution could not have happened without the US in World War I) and then hid the fact that Stalin was more body than Hitler in World War II.
    A czarist AND a Nazi proponent too?

  5. #35
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    The CIA has done some good stuff and some very bad stuff.

    It deserves a pat on the back for the good stuff and a kick in the butt for the very bad stuff.
    That's exactly my point.

  6. #36
    Iconoclast
    DaveFagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    wny
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:28 AM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,289

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I'm giving you a bunch of flack on the forum because you equate the USA government doing evil with somehow making Russia good. When it goes to war, Russia is far more genocidal than the USA. Russia is less just in war, in government, in treatment of prisoners etc - and Russia is very racist vastly beyond that in the USA.

    SO... if you were ONLY cursing the CIA etc without converting that to making Russia the good guys I'd probably lighten up.

    But the other aspect is the history of the human race, everywhere, all across time, is a history of extreme brutality, sadism and war - more wars and genocides than history can even count. So the REAL question is where does the "be nice" goal meet "live in reality?" Where is the real fulcrum point between right and wrong? Being pure good leads to pure subjugation and slavery. So does pure evil.

    The USA is a wealthy country. This is not the result of being ethically pure. No country in existence has come into existence - nor could - upon the standards of purity.

    When my wife her business (a long atypical story) it included selling certain chemicals that are legal to sell but also easily refined to high enough concentrations to make chemical explosives. I think people would be stunned as to how many wannabe terrorists there are - usually lone wolf types or some bizarre small group. 99% of the time they are caught before blowing up a subway or airliner or football game or mall. It is the "evil spying" on computers, the Internet, emails and tracing phone calls by the CIA/NSA/FBI combined with industry involvement that prevents it.

    To the contrast, if this was not done and a bomb killed a bunch of Americans then people would be screaming about why didn't government stop that from happening.

    Virtually everything is measuring degrees of allowable grey area. Without a doubt, the USA government, military and intelligence community has does horrifically evil things. But as a stand-alone statement it doesn't mean much.
    The USA has and does profit handsomely from war. It's business as usual for CORPORATE USA. If you are a rascist and a warmonger, that is certainly your prerogative. Have at it. No thinking required! Russia is the good guy in this matter. The USA/CIA created the instability in Ukraine that forced Russia to take care of her people, and she did without killing over 100 people like the Maidan Opposition did.

  7. #37
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,313

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    In law, we say that torture “taints” an investigation.
    You misunderstand. The premise of the "torture" was not investigation. Those subject to enhanced interrogation were known terrorists. There was no doubt, whatsoever, that these people had and would kill hundreds of people. They were interrogated for verifiable information. Torture for verifiable information does, and always will, work.

    You're making the mistake of confusing torture for confession with torture for verifiable information. Basically, you're looking at the situation too simply and failing to comprehend the reality.

  8. #38
    Iconoclast
    DaveFagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    wny
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:28 AM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,289

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You misunderstand. The premise of the "torture" was not investigation. Those subject to enhanced interrogation were known terrorists. There was no doubt, whatsoever, that these people had and would kill hundreds of people. They were interrogated for verifiable information. Torture for verifiable information does, and always will, work.

    You're making the mistake of confusing torture for confession with torture for verifiable information. Basically, you're looking at the situation too simply and failing to comprehend the reality.
    Torture and rendition are against the Geneva Conventions. English and Graner went to prison for torture that was documented as US gov't policy in Iraq, not Guantanamo. There's 6300 pages stilll stuck in Congress that are about torture, not CIA snooping. Also, you can not provide a credible link that any lives were saved by torture. That is one of the reasons the Congressional 6300 pages are stuck in limbo.

  9. #39
    global liberation

    ecofarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Miami
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:12 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    66,313

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    English and Graner went to prison for torture that was documented as US gov't policy in Iraq, not Guantanamo.
    That's full of crap. They were convicted as the criminals they were.

    Using criminals to indict a population is very low functionality.

  10. #40
    Iconoclast
    DaveFagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    wny
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:28 AM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,289

    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    That's full of crap. They were convicted as the criminals they were.

    Using criminals to indict a population is very low functionality.
    They were doing CIA policy and their CIC, GWBUSH (the first torturer), didn't have the cojones to take the blame by standing up for his torturers. 6300 pages stuck in Congress tell teh story.

Page 4 of 12 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •