View Poll Results: Is the CIA patriotic and trustworthy?

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  • YES

    10 27.03%
  • NO

    13 35.14%
  • Patriotic, not trustworthy

    11 29.73%
  • Trustworthy, not patriotic

    0 0%
  • Torture is illegal and they're hiding everything

    6 16.22%
  • Like Cops, they protect their own

    10 27.03%
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Thread: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

  1. #11
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Depends on one's definition of "patriotism". But are they "trustworthy"? God no. Like any intelligence agency in just about any country they protect their own, and use all possible and even illegal means to find what they want. Like all intelligence agencies they hide all the unfavorable information on them and release the info that will make them look positive.


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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Depends on one's definition of "patriotism". But are they "trustworthy"? God no. Like any intelligence agency in just about any country they protect their own, and use all possible and even illegal means to find what they want. Like all intelligence agencies they hide all the unfavorable information on them and release the info that will make them look positive.
    In my mind I think Watergate, October Surprise, Iran/Contra, BCCI, Mena Arkansas, black sites and torture, Panama/Noriega, etc. These are just the large visible issues and many, many more must have been hidden or they are completely inept.

  3. #13
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Depends on one's definition of "patriotism". But are they "trustworthy"? God no. Like any intelligence agency in just about any country they protect their own, and use all possible and even illegal means to find what they want. Like all intelligence agencies they hide all the unfavorable information on them and release the info that will make them look positive.
    Here's another link that shows the "bastardization" of our Mainstream Media "Stenographers" doing a fine job of not reporting the News. Regarding an issue of investigation of multiple Kidnap and torture by the CIA, can you find the words "kidnap" (rendition) or torture anywhere in the framed news article. Do you think that leaving those words out changes the context of that article or does it frame the issue as just an investigation of something? The fish smells bad.

    Terror report release may fuel Congress' CIA spat
    Terror report release may fuel Congress' CIA spat

    "WASHINGTON (AP) — If senators vote this week to release key sections of a voluminous report on terrorist interrogations, an already strained relationship between lawmakers and the CIA could become even more rancorous, and President Barack Obama might have to step into the fray.

    The Senate Intelligence Committee hopes that by publishing a 400-page summary of its contentious review and the 20 main recommendations, it will shed light on some of the most unsavory elements of the Bush administration's "war on terror" after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Despite now serving Obama, the CIA maintains that the report underestimates the intelligence value of waterboarding and other methods employed by intelligence officials at undeclared, "black site" facilities overseas. The entire investigation runs some 6,200 pages.

    The dispute boiled into the open earlier this month with competing claims of wrongdoing by Senate staffers and CIA officials. The intelligence committee's chairwoman, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, accused the CIA of improperly monitoring the computer use of Senate staffers and deleting files, undermining the separation of powers between the executive and legislative branches. The agency said the intelligence panel illegally accessed certain documents. Each side has registered criminal complaints with the Justice Department.

    This week's vote could fuel the fight, if it goes in favor of disclosure. It would start a process that forces CIA officials and Senate staffers to go line-by-line through the report and debate which elements can be made public and which must stay secret because of ongoing national security concerns. The CIA and the executive branch hold all the keys as the final determiners of what ought to remain classified. Senators primarily have the bully pulpit of embarrassing the CIA publicly and the last-resort measure of going after the agency's budget.

    But senators are hoping the dispute can be diffused with the intervention of Obama, whose record includes outlawing waterboarding, unsuccessfully seeking the closure of the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and supporting other changes in how the United States pursues, detains, questions and prosecutes terrorist suspects. The president has refused thus far to weigh in on Congress' dispute with the CIA, while pledging to declassify at least the findings of the Senate report "so that the American people can understand what happened in the past, and that can help guide us as we move forward."

    Obama's involvement may be in the interest of both sides. Senators fear their report will be scuttled by CIA officials directly involved in past interrogation practices, undermining the role of Congress in overseeing the nation's spy agencies. For the intelligence community, which prides itself on its discretion and foresight, even the perception of manipulating that oversight could be damaging with a public still coming to grips with National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden's revelations of massive government collection of telephone and other data.

    And a further worsening of Congress' spat with the CIA hardly serves Obama's aims. It has centered on Feinstein, a Democratic supporter of the president who has backed the White House on NSA and other matters, and CIA Director John Brennan, who previously served as Obama's homeland security adviser. The entire fuss is over counterterrorism practices the president entered office determined to eliminate.

    Brennan offered conciliatory words in a message to CIA employees Friday. He said agency officials would address the committee's concerns so it can complete its work report as soon as possible. He also complimented Feinstein and other congressional figures for carrying out "their oversight responsibilities with great dedication and patriotism." But he did not directly address Feinstein's tart criticism or acknowledge any agency wrongdoing. He said that as a result of the unpublished review, the agency has already taken steps to strengthen CIA performance. He did not detail those moves.

    Adding heat on the CIA, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid ordered an investigation by his body's top cop into the computer network that contained the confidential, internal CIA review that has sparked the rift. Congressional aides say the "Panetta review," so called because it was ordered by then-CIA Director Leon Panetta, counters CIA claims about the effectiveness of its interrogation methods and backs up assertions in the committee's review.

    Brennan has yet to say publicly whether the CIA will allow Senate law enforcement personnel to search agency computers that staffers had used in northern Virginia. In his note, Brennan said only that "appropriate officials are reviewing the facts."

    In letters last week to the heads of the CIA and Justice Department, Reid, another close Obama ally, said the CIA's unapproved searching of computers was "absolutely indefensible." He challenged the credibility of Brennan's claims and echoed Feinstein's conflict-of-interest concerns about CIA lawyer Robert Eatinger, who was acting general counsel when he filed the criminal referral against Senate employees. That was after Eatinger was identified 1,600 times in the committee's study of the interrogation program.

    Eatinger was a controversial figure even before his most recent run-ins with congressional investigators. Between 2004 and 2009, he was chief counsel for the CIA Detention and Interrogation Unit that employed harsh questioning tactics that some consider torture, such as waterboarding and sleep deprivation. He was also among several CIA lawyers involved in the decision to destroy graphic videotapes of al-Qaida suspects being waterboarded.

    Congressional officials worry that Eatinger and other CIA officials who worked in the interrogation unit could be involved in the agency's declassification of the Senate report. Former intelligence officials familiar with the agency's procedures said the process would probably by overseen by lawyers from the CIA's general counsel office, as well as its Intelligence Management section, which handles declassification of long-secret historic and important documents.

    In some declassification projects, documents can be farmed out to appropriate CIA units that have historical knowledge of the events, said congressional and former intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly on the matter. Concern that Eatinger and other former interrogation unit members might be involved in declassification partly explains the committee's insistence on White House oversight, congressional aides said."
    Last edited by DaveFagan; 03-24-14 at 09:38 AM.

  4. #14
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Depends on one's definition of "patriotism". But are they "trustworthy"? God no. Like any intelligence agency in just about any country they protect their own, and use all possible and even illegal means to find what they want. Like all intelligence agencies they hide all the unfavorable information on them and release the info that will make them look positive.
    Here's another one today from the Nation.

    Spy Agencies, Not Politicians, Hold the Cards in Washington | The Nation
    "Spy Agencies, Not Politicians, Hold the Cards in Washington
    William Greider on March 24, 2014 - 12:57 PM ET
    " am addicted to House of Cards, the British and American versions, but I suggest that both TV series have been looking at the wrong game.

    On television, the story line is about a wicked political schemer, accompanied by his wicked wife, who climbs to the ultimate perch of power—prime minister or president—through fiendishly malevolent manipulations, including homicide. In the real world of Washington, however, politicians look more like impotent innocents compared to their true masters. It is the spooks and the spies who shuffle the deck and deal the cards. They hide their cut-throat intrigues behind bland initials—the CIA and the NSA.

    In recent weeks, a lurid real-life melodrama has been playing out in the nation's capital that has the flavor of old-fashioned conspiracy theories. The two clandestine agencies are the true puppet masters.

    It is elected politicians, even the president, who are puppets dancing on a string. I hope the TV writers are taking notes. This would make a swell plot outline for a third season of the popular drama—"House of Cards, the Reality TV Version."

    The plot begins a decade ago in the bad years after 9/11 when the CIA embraced global torture in the war against terrorism. Official Washington was traumatized by the attack and looked the other way, pretending not to know what the spooks were doing. The men in black plucked various "terrorists" off the Arab Street and shipped them to less squeamish countries around the world where the US agents could use medieval methods for pain and punishment, techniques officially prohibited by US law.

    The political system was at first shocked when gruesome details were exposed by vigilant reporters. But soon enough the spooks were being celebrated as our anonymous heroes—sticking it to the bad guys, satisfying the popular thirst for revenge. CIA operatives even taped the cruelty for agency archives. The torturers even got their own popular TV show called 24. The Bush administration issued far-fetched legal justifications explaining their torture wasn't illegal torture. The press backed off a bit and began gingerly noting differences of opinion on waterboarding and sleep deprivation.

    Eventually, as truth caught up with official lies and the long war in Iraq was exposed as another gigantic fraud, Americans lost their stomach for lawlessness in Washington. The CIA discreetly destroyed its torture tapes (a pity since this would have been terrific footage for the TV show). The Agency denied everything and promised not to do it again. The new president took their word for it. In a forgiving tone, Obama urged Americans not to be obsessed with old controversies. Congress assured the nation that the Intelligence Committees of House and Senate were exceedingly vigilant and they would scold the CIA vigorously if it ever lied again (details, alas, were kept "classified" so as not to aid the enemy).

    Public affairs in Washington might have settled down to usual pretensions of "straight talk" except that some high-minded computer geeks came along and blew the doors off government secrecy. First, it was the notorious Wikileaks gang that posted reams of official government documents on the Internet, lighting bonfires of indignation around the world. Reading the private cables from US embassies or the text of a secretly negotiated trade agreement is an educational experience. It desanctifies the lofty legends of diplomacy."
    .......

    "Next it was Citizen Snowden who came forward with the crown jewels of secrets—the shocking dimensions of the National Security Agency's digital invasion of privacy. The government really is listening to your daily pedestrian talk, recording our intimate thoughts. For many years, the people who believed this were usually also hearing voices from God and the Wizard of Oz. Now it is established that Americans at large are in the files, their phone calls conveniently recorded for the spooks and spies, should the government agencies find a reason to know more about you. The agency says it won't do this (unless really, really necessary to save the nation). But we also learned the agency lies, not just to you and me, but to congressional inquiries.

    The NSA and the CIA, though sometimes rivals for power, can be thought of as the "evil twins" of government bureaucracy—licensed to trample on the Bill of Rights in the name of protecting the nation from alien forces. The two agencies are joined at the hip by this new storm of staggering revelations. Both are trying awkwardly to maintain their Cold War mystique but the storm threatens to blow away their "house of cards." Puppet-like politicians are exposed as utterly incompetent watchdogs. The puppet masters don't look so smart either.

    What's promising is they are turning on each other. Senator Dianne Feinstein, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee and long-loyal apologist for the spy agencies, accused the CIA of spying on her committee's belated investigation into the torture scandal. CIA Director John Brennan turned around and put the blame on her, actually accusing her committee staff of snooping on the agency. He even filed a complaint with the Justice Department and asked for a criminal investigation of the congressional oversight committee.

    Feinstein in turn asked Justice to investigate Brennan. This is truly weird.

    A Huffington Post headline captured the absurdity: " Senators Okay with Spying on Citizens, But Outraged It Happened to Congress." You can turn it around and make the same point. The CIA and NSA routinely ignore the law and Constitution themselves but want the Justice Department to protect them from an over-reaching Congress. The "House of Cards" is playing for laughs. Which side will President Obama take in this fight?

    Meanwhile, Citizen Snowden continues his educational campaign with more bracing revelations about the National Security Agency. Thanks to Snowden, The Washington Post reported that the NSA has built a surveillance system that can record "100 percent" of a foreign country's telephone calls—every single phone conversation. The voice interception program is called MYSTIC. Its official emblem portrays a gnarly wizard in a purple robe and pointy hat, holding a cell phone aloft. Do they think this is a Saturday morning cartoon?



    The more I thought about it, I kept coming back to the homeland."


    "The spies may not have tapped the White House phones but they do know what he knows and can always make use of it. This is the very core of the card game played by the intelligence agencies and it didn't start with Barack Obama. When any new president comes to town, he is told the secrets first thing and continuously. The briefings can be chilling but also thrilling.

    Ultimately, it can also be slyly coopting to learn what the government knows only at the very highest level. As the agencies take the White House deeper and deeper into the black box, it becomes harder for a president to dissent. It also makes it riskier to do so. The CIA or NSA know what he heard and know what he said when he learned the secrets. If the president decides to condemn their dirty work, the spooks and spies can leak to the press how in the privacy of the Oval Office the commander-in-chief gave the green light."

  5. #15
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Hey as long as Feinstein stays pissed at the CIA, we'll have entertainment.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  6. #16
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Hey as long as Feinstein stays pissed at the CIA, we'll have entertainment.
    We should all be possed at the CIA. They have dishonored us, as a Nation, repeatedly. Torture, torture and torture. Lies, lies, and more lies. Coverups, obfuscation, and co-ordinated destruction of our Congressional regulatory processes. Geez, Louise (Chuck Butler) gimme a break.

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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    We should all be possed at the CIA. They have dishonored us, as a Nation, repeatedly. Torture, torture and torture. Lies, lies, and more lies. Coverups, obfuscation, and co-ordinated destruction of our Congressional regulatory processes. Geez, Louise (Chuck Butler) gimme a break.
    Actually that's what we pay them to be good at. I guess they really are.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  8. #18
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Poll has too Many options to see what sentiment actually is.
    A Simple YES and NO would have been Much better.
    As it stands, it's Ridiculous.
    It adds Duplicate and irrelevant options. (ie, "Torture"!)
    Why not add "They take too much vacation time" to further destroy your own poll.
    What a muddled abortion.

    - YES
    - NO
    - Patriotic, not trustworthy
    - Trustworthy, not patriotic
    - Torture is illegal and they're hiding everything
    - Like Cops, they protect their own
    Last edited by mbig; 03-25-14 at 01:15 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

  9. #19
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Poll has too Many options to see what sentiment actually is.
    A Simple YES and NO would have been Much better.
    As it stands, it's Ridiculous.
    It adds duplicate and irrelevant options.
    Why not add "They take too much vacation time" to further destroy your own poll.
    What a muddled abortion.

    - YES
    - NO
    - Patriotic, not trustworthy
    - Trustworthy, not patriotic
    - Torture is illegal and they're hiding everything
    - Like Cops, they protect their own


    Only in a very simple mind would a yes or no answer be minimally adequate. You're supposed to have to think about these options. Apparently you cannot. Fine, works for me.

  10. #20
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Only in a very simple mind would a yes or no answer be minimally adequate. You're supposed to have to think about these options. Apparently you cannot. Fine, works for me.
    ie,
    IF "Torture is illegal and they hide everything" Then they are NOT Trustworthy. "NO"
    WTF is the problem?
    If someone feels they are "Not" trustworthy on balance, then their opinions get so Fragmented numerically, one Cannot discern the OVERALL sentiment. Polls are Numeric queries.
    You made a duplicative Laundry List mostly for "NO".

    additionally, "They protect their own" is tangential/nearly irrelevant to the issue.
    They could be "trustworthy" on balance and still 'protect their own'.

    You could add 10 more options/proxies for/Examples OF - YES and NO - so that no answer got more that 5 people choosing it.
    It's a Meaningless mind-splatter and Defeats the purpose OF a poll.
    Last edited by mbig; 03-25-14 at 01:44 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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