View Poll Results: Is the CIA patriotic and trustworthy?

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  • YES

    10 27.03%
  • NO

    13 35.14%
  • Patriotic, not trustworthy

    11 29.73%
  • Trustworthy, not patriotic

    0 0%
  • Torture is illegal and they're hiding everything

    6 16.22%
  • Like Cops, they protect their own

    10 27.03%
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Thread: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

  1. #91
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    When the size and power of intelligence/security agencies reach a certain level, democracy* becomes a farce. The people can not participate in decision making when too much information is kept secret. That means that we probably have to accept some risk of foreign espionage, crime and terrorism in exchange for democracy, although espionage, crime and terrorism are also threats to democracy when not limited.

    *including representational democracy

  2. #92
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    911 was NOT an invasion.

    It was, like what the US has been doing, an attack. No troops came to US shores and started killing civilians.

    Your wonderful and loyal CIA completely failed to see that coming, even though it was the SECOND TIME THE SAME PEOPLE attacked. The same CIA that got ARab spring completely wrong and failed to even see the fall of the Berlin Wall....

    So, go ahead, let them continue to torture and wreak havoc around the globe, getting it right of course, like they did in Ukraine.
    Second? lol

    Anyway, no organization is going to have a 100% success rate. Why would you assume an organization with significantly large hurdles and difficult competition achieve this?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Second? lol

    Anyway, no organization is going to have a 100% success rate. Why would you assume an organization with significantly large hurdles and difficult competition achieve this?

    Please list the CIA's successes.

    The Berlin Wall coming down?

    Nope.

    The fall of Soviet Russia?

    Nope.

    The FIRST world trade center bombing?

    1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Note these names and Al Qaeda:

    Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal A. Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj.

    The Second World Trade Center bombing?

    September 11 attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Nope.

    Arab Spring?

    Nope

    Finding Osama Bin Laden


    ummmm...only five years.

    Libya?

    Nope

    Egypt?

    Nope.

    Syria?

    Nope

    Iraq?

    Nope.

    Iran?

    Nope

    Turkey?

    Nope

    Ukraine?

    Nope

    Crimea?

    Nope

    Russia's reaction?

    Nope
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

  4. #94
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Please list the CIA's successes.

    The Berlin Wall coming down?

    Nope.

    The fall of Soviet Russia?

    Nope.

    The FIRST world trade center bombing?

    1993 World Trade Center bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Note these names and Al Qaeda:

    Ramzi Yousef, Mahmud Abouhalima, Mohammad Salameh, Nidal A. Ayyad, Abdul Rahman Yasin and Ahmad Ajaj.

    The Second World Trade Center bombing?

    September 11 attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Nope.

    Arab Spring?

    Nope

    Finding Osama Bin Laden


    ummmm...only five years.

    Libya?

    Nope

    Egypt?

    Nope.

    Syria?

    Nope

    Iraq?

    Nope.

    Iran?

    Nope

    Turkey?

    Nope

    Ukraine?

    Nope

    Crimea?

    Nope

    Russia's reaction?

    Nope
    Huh? You think CIA successes are publicized? Why would they be?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  5. #95
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Huh? You think CIA successes are publicized? Why would they be?

    I;m never surprised when a gov't paycheck "rationalizes" so they don't feel guilty about taking their paycheck.
    You're right. General knowledge of their successes would bring abject shame upon the Agency. For instance, Guatamala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, Granada, Libya, Syria(oops), Ukraine, Cuba(oops), Egypt, Chile, Haiti, Iran(oops), Iraq(oops), and th elist goes on.

    "Major Joe Blair was the director of instruction at the U.S. School of the Americas (SOA) from 1986 to 1989. He described the training he oversaw at SOA as the following: "The doctrine that was taught was that if you want information you use physical abuse, false imprisonment, threats to family members, and killing. If you can't get the information you want, if you can't get that person to shut up or stop what they're doing, you assassinate them—and you assassinate them with one of your death squads."

    The stock response of U.S. officials to the exposure of the systematic crimes I've described is that such things may have occurred at certain times in the past but that they in no way reflect long-term or ongoing U.S. policy. The School of the Americas was moved from the Panama Canal Zone to Fort Benning, Georgia, and replaced by the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC) in 2001. But Joe Blair has something to say about that too. Testifying at a trial of SOA Watch protesters in 2002, he said, "There are no substantive changes besides the name. They teach the identical courses that I taught, and changed the course names and use the same manuals."

    A huge amount of human suffering could be alleviated and global problems solved if the United States would make a genuine commitment to human rights and the rule of law, as opposed to one it only applies cynically and opportunistically to its enemies, but never to itself or its allies.

    Nicolas J. S. Davies is the author of Blood On Our Hands: The American Invasion and Destruction of Iraq. He wrote the chapter on "Obama At War" for the book, Grading the 44th President: A Report Card on Barack Obama's First Term as a Progressive Leader."

  6. #96
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Please list the CIA's successes.
    As has been noted already, we would not and should not be told of the CIA's successes.

    But I'll give you a few in which the CIA played - had to play - a crucial part. The capture of bin Laden, for one. Another one would be JFK's stare-down of the USSR over the missiles in Cuba, since they had to be the ones who told him what the Soviets had and did not have.

    When we keep nations like Pakistan from falling apart and radicalizing, the CIA is almost certainly a part of that. When Egypt's American-supported dictator Morsi fell, did Egypt start hating America? No. Almost certainly because of the CIA, we were able to know who to contact within the new regime there in order to keep them on our side. It's the CIA that's letting us know who's the good guys and the bad guys in the protests going on in Thailand, which Chinese bigwigs are angling to improve their standing in the Party, and which South American dictator is being supported by drug lords. And they work with other nations around the world - like Englands MI-5 and Israel's Mossad - to try to advance our nations' different interests.

    What the CIA does is for the most part the grunt work that gets the State Department (and other government agencies) the information it needs in order for America's diplomatic efforts to be more effective. The CIA does some things that are very wrong and no mistake - but that's not a symptom of the CIA being a grand failure. Instead, failures by the CIA are much more often instances of failures by the Executive Branch.
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  7. #97
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Huh? You think CIA successes are publicized? Why would they be?
    Only their failures?

    Nice try.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

  8. #98
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Only their failures?

    Nice try.
    Uh...yeah?

    (Dave that rant was nonsensical)
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  9. #99
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    As has been noted already, we would not and should not be told of the CIA's successes.

    But I'll give you a few in which the CIA played - had to play - a crucial part. The capture of bin Laden, for one. Another one would be JFK's stare-down of the USSR over the missiles in Cuba, since they had to be the ones who told him what the Soviets had and did not have.

    When we keep nations like Pakistan from falling apart and radicalizing, the CIA is almost certainly a part of that. When Egypt's American-supported dictator Morsi fell, did Egypt start hating America? No. Almost certainly because of the CIA, we were able to know who to contact within the new regime there in order to keep them on our side. It's the CIA that's letting us know who's the good guys and the bad guys in the protests going on in Thailand, which Chinese bigwigs are angling to improve their standing in the Party, and which South American dictator is being supported by drug lords. And they work with other nations around the world - like Englands MI-5 and Israel's Mossad - to try to advance our nations' different interests.

    What the CIA does is for the most part the grunt work that gets the State Department (and other government agencies) the information it needs in order for America's diplomatic efforts to be more effective. The CIA does some things that are very wrong and no mistake - but that's not a symptom of the CIA being a grand failure. Instead, failures by the CIA are much more often instances of failures by the Executive Branch.


    Right.

    The CIA helped Kennedy "stare down the soviet union.'

    first, that is in no way accurate and two, does not counter the Bay of Pigs disaster now does it?

    For the record, and please do some research, Kennedy lost that stand off.

    The Russians moved the missiles into Cuba because Kennedy violated a treaty and installed nukes in Turkey.

    The Russian navy was not turned away by the US blockade, but by Kennedy's secret agreement, only declassified years later, to remove the missiles from Turkey.

    CIA success are a matter of record, as are their failures. There are oversight committees and mandatory declassification of materials, that's how we learn of their failures.....There are also presidents who brag...

    So the claim that successes have to be kept secret is outright bull ****.
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

  10. #100
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    Re: The CIA’s Poisonous Tree

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    Right.

    The CIA helped Kennedy "stare down the soviet union.'

    first, that is in no way accurate and two, does not counter the Bay of Pigs disaster now does it?

    For the record, and please do some research, Kennedy lost that stand off.

    The Russians moved the missiles into Cuba because Kennedy violated a treaty and installed nukes in Turkey.

    The Russian navy was not turned away by the US blockade, but by Kennedy's secret agreement, only declassified years later, to remove the missiles from Turkey.

    CIA success are a matter of record, as are their failures. There are oversight committees and mandatory declassification of materials, that's how we learn of their failures.....There are also presidents who brag...

    So the claim that successes have to be kept secret is outright bull ****.
    Cherry-pick much? And yes, I knew about how we moved our missiles away from Turkey...but without foreknowledge of what the Soviets had and did not have, JFK's bargaining ability would have been significantly less.

    And dude...are you really so naive as to think that the congressional oversight committees and "mandatory" declassification will tell you everything they did? Really?
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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