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Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

  • School grounds only.

    Votes: 31 63.3%
  • Up to the time the student(s) get home.

    Votes: 8 16.3%
  • Anytime, anything, anywhere.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • Other

    Votes: 6 12.2%

  • Total voters
    49
In the current environment bullying can be a 24/7 thing with social media. The school has a responsibility to keep all children in their charge safe and free of any harassment that they are aware of happening. Since they are all students of the school the policy may define sanctions but they could also give evidence to local authorities and have them handle it. If any of the cyberbullying occurs using school network, computers or the like then the school has the right and obligation to intervene.

Courts have ruled however schools have far reaching ability to discipline students even outside of school functions and off school property so we would have to see how the area handles such things.
Let's get this straight, the school has no responsibility to discipline the students unless an activity occurs on school grounds or affects activities on school grounds. The school does not have the right to suspend or in any other way discipline a student in situations where the student criticizes the school and is disciplined because of "disorderly conduct" . Bullying is a real issue, but it is a shame that it serves as one of many covers to treat students like cattle and machines, and that is how students are treated. Don't give me the whole story about the school being a superior institution. Students continue to suffer miseducation under a system that doesn't even care about them in the first place besides the fact that the parents pay the salaries of the Administrators and the supervisors and the educational bureaucracy that doesn't care about students OR teachers, and that's why we have teacher unions, but that is a whole story of its own.
 
Example: Mary and her friends have been harassing Dorothy at school. Bullying, if you will. Said harassing and bullying eventually expands to walking home, and then beyond that to Facebook and the internet at all times of the day.

Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

Should the school's authority to discipline stop at the school's property line?

Should the school be responsible until the student(s) get home?

Should the school have authority to discipline at all hours, which would essentially be anything and anywhere?

What think you?
I frankly don't think the schools should have authority at all.

Liberty to control behavior, and to remove disruptions to learning should be the only things granted to a school.

Schools aren't social experiments they are houses of education strictly. The only authority they should have over behavior with in the school grounds is to remove disruptions.

The only resolution for bullying is to out bully the bully. Going and telling mommy teaches a child that mommy will solve all of your problems.

When I was a boy about 9 years old, I had a bully named Patrick. This boy was 14 easy. He lived on my street. He stole my bike once I saw it in his yard. I was not his only victim either, two other boys were targeted by Patrick.

I went home and told my mommy about my bike. She went to Patrick's house and spoke with Patrick's. He brought me my bicycle and made Patrick apologize. That was like putting gasoline on a fire. He stole my coat, my school bag and all sorts of things. He was doing this to the other young boys on my block.

The aforementioned two boys and I hatched a plan. We went home and got some broom sticks and beat the everloving piss out of Patrick. That worked. It was a permanent solution. Patrick's parents still live in that house and any time I saw him after that he never even looked at me.

We need to teach kids to stand up for themselves, not lay down and take it. We are encouraging cowardice in children.
 
Messages can be lost and ignored. I'd prefer putting them in a situation where they HAVE to acknowledge it and do something about it.

Again, its not just your money. Other people have valid opinions on what is and isn't a waste. It is good to know though that you think that getting parents directly involved by putting them in a situation where they have to actually deal with the problem and not just ignore it is a waste...and you are by your own words, self righteous about it.



Another reason to force the parents into a situation where they have to deal with the problem directly.


Whats this got to do with what we have been talking about? Did I miss some segway or something?

It's just silly to focus on 'contacting the parents' like it's a big issue here (in terms of ability, not when it's appropriate to do so). They have emergency contact numbers....and this is not an emergency. Timing may be more relevant in an actual emergency but not regarding discipline...

and it is my money and the only thing that legitimizes the govt TAKING it from me is the production of a better, more educated citizenry. And I certainly do believe in holding parents accountable and dragging them into being more involved with their kid's discipline. The school shouldnt over reach into the home...it should make the penalties on the kid in school have consequences that also affect the parents and motivate them to ACT at home.

The $$ I referred to came up in a thread where they had ZERO tolerance policies against guns and kicked a kid out for making a gun with his fingers. The zero tolerance policy enables the school to avoid actually examining issues on an individual basis and therefore avoid claims of prejudice or unfairness from parents....which parents can challenge in courts. Win, lose, or settle, it all costs the school $$ so it's cheaper to have mindless zero tolerance policies. It was tangential to this issue and relevant in the post...sorry if it was confusing.
 
Example: Mary and her friends have been harassing Dorothy at school. Bullying, if you will. Said harassing and bullying eventually expands to walking home, and then beyond that to Facebook and the internet at all times of the day.

Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

Should the school's authority to discipline stop at the school's property line?

Should the school be responsible until the student(s) get home?

Should the school have authority to discipline at all hours, which would essentially be anything and anywhere?

What think you?

It's my understanding that the school's liability lasts until the child gets home so bullying on the walk home would be the school's responsibility. As for what happens on Facebook, that is another matter. so much of that can bleed over to the school day. Are the kids accessing Facebook while at school? Is it being discussed?
 
If kids are doing it in person at school/on the bus, imo, the school should act swiftly and decisively. Lunch time spent in the school office alone. No extra-curricular activities. Period. Study halls spent in the school office alone. No outside school functions . . . no clubs . . . no dances. Assemblies recorded for their viewing pleasure. Assembly time spent in the school office alone. Make the price for bullying isolation and it'll stop.

At the beginning of the school year, an anti-bullying handbook given out describing its harmful effects, giving kids an avenue to report it, and warning everyone that, "Here are the rules. Break them? Here are the consequences." Last page in handbook is a parent/student signature page to be kept on file.

All reports documented in writing. Child suspended for two days and must bring parent back to get re-admitted. If this were school policy, bullying on school property would stop. And that's more than half the battle.

In this state, the state has set the penalty for bullying at 10 days out of school suspension. Since at our school you can't make up work missed due to suspension and a suspension counts as an unexcused absence, then the real penalty is failing all your classes and repeating the year. Therefore, I've never seen that used.

I do agree that schools should act swiftly and harshly. You'd be amazed the fight parents give when their child is punished for that kind of behavior.
 
Agreed. Do you view bullying as a special case? Would you, for example, view a school policy of expelling a student who committed a crime - say possession of marijuana - off school property as a legitimate exercise of school authority?

Such a student would be excluded from all extra-curricular activities.
 
It's my understanding that the school's liability lasts until the child gets home so bullying on the walk home would be the school's responsibility. As for what happens on Facebook, that is another matter. so much of that can bleed over to the school day. Are the kids accessing Facebook while at school? Is it being discussed?

No offense here, Layla. I seriously doubt what you say is true about the school's liability . . . unless the student is riding the bus; and then only until he exits it safely.
 
What is your point? That it's ok to waste my money and other people's? To do the jobs that parents should be doing?

It's great to say parents should do their jobs. I completely agree. But what happens when they don't. The school contacts the parents and says your child is bullying another child. Here's what's going to happen at school as a consequence but you need to take steps to stop it at home. Too often the parent's reaction will be to attack and blame the school. Schools have been taking on more and more of the parent's job because too many aren't doing their job.
 
It's great to say parents should do their jobs. I completely agree. But what happens when they don't. The school contacts the parents and says your child is bullying another child. Here's what's going to happen at school as a consequence but you need to take steps to stop it at home. Too often the parent's reaction will be to attack and blame the school. Schools have been taking on more and more of the parent's job because too many aren't doing their job.
Yet...

Can we force such a thing?
Regulations about how to parent (beyond the laws against abuse already)?

Personally I think that would make things worse.

So how then, if it cannot be regulated? Cultural changes? How do you do that, intentionally?
 
It's just silly to focus on 'contacting the parents' like it's a big issue here (in terms of ability, not when it's appropriate to do so). They have emergency contact numbers....and this is not an emergency. Timing may be more relevant in an actual emergency but not regarding discipline...

and it is my money and the only thing that legitimizes the govt TAKING it from me is the production of a better, more educated citizenry. And I certainly do believe in holding parents accountable and dragging them into being more involved with their kid's discipline. The school shouldnt over reach into the home...it should make the penalties on the kid in school have consequences that also affect the parents and motivate them to ACT at home.

The $$ I referred to came up in a thread where they had ZERO tolerance policies against guns and kicked a kid out for making a gun with his fingers. The zero tolerance policy enables the school to avoid actually examining issues on an individual basis and therefore avoid claims of prejudice or unfairness from parents....which parents can challenge in courts. Win, lose, or settle, it all costs the school $$ so it's cheaper to have mindless zero tolerance policies. It was tangential to this issue and relevant in the post...sorry if it was confusing.

Take it from someone who has been there. It can be all but impossible to contact a parent if they don't want to be contacted. If you do finally get them, you wish you hadn't because of the hateful response.
 
No offense here, Layla. I seriously doubt what you say is true about the school's liability . . . unless the student is riding the bus; and then only until he exits it safely.

I've been teaching for 20 years. Why in the world would you think I know what I'm talking about. It may vary from state to state, but I am certain what I stated is the case here.
 
Yet...

Can we force such a thing?
Regulations about how to parent (beyond the laws against abuse already)?

Personally I think that would make things worse.

So how then, if it cannot be regulated? Cultural changes? How do you do that, intentionally?

I don't know the answer. I wish I did. We discuss this at school often. What do you do with kids who don't care? They don't care if they fail, they don't care if they are in trouble, they are never ashamed or embarrassed by consequences. The bigger worry is what do you do with those same kids when their parents don't care?
 
I don't know the answer. I wish I did. We discuss this at school often. What do you do with kids who don't care? They don't care if they fail, they don't care if they are in trouble, they are never ashamed or embarrassed by consequences. The bigger worry is what do you do with those same kids when their parents don't care?
At some point I assume that some of them reach the point of going to a juvenile detention facility?
But at that point it's often long after the point at which the parents should have done something....

The thing is....getting the kids to care. That's the key, really.. And also the problem...

You can pass it off to the parent, sure. but what if they don't care enough to pick up the baton (which they should have been holding the entire time to begin with, of course).


You could make a law that required every parent/guardian to spend time with their kid for an hour a day. But how many freedoms would that infringe upon?
 
Perhaps a required course for graduation from HS, focused on child-rearing. Of course that's more of an art than a science really.
 
I've been teaching for 20 years. Why in the world would you think I know what I'm talking about. It may vary from state to state, but I am certain what I stated is the case here.

It's always been amazing to me what people, including myself, think they know. What state do you live in, Layla, I'd like to check it. I think holding a school legally liable for what happens to a child as he walks home from school is ludicrous. Gets hit by a car? School's liable. Gets kidnapped? School's liable. Breaks his arm? School's liable. I find that very hard to believe.
 
Authority = responsibility, only fair

If the bully can be suspended for actions off school property, then the bully's victim can sue the school too

I actually learned all this the hard way. A teacher backed out her driveway and nearly crashed into me on the road leading to school. I drove past and flipped her off. Well i didn't know who she was (i probly woulda done it anyway), and as i parked she pulls up behind me and screams "You're outta here!" I still didn't know her (special ed teacher)

Of course got summoned to the principal. My case was it was off school property, they showed me the student handbook (which i never read) where it said even on vacation ------- I laughed, said that's outrageous, and they can try pursue it so long as they do the same to her for nearly running me over and i might even hold the school responsible for the trauma.

That was the end of that.
 
At some point I assume that some of them reach the point of going to a juvenile detention facility?
But at that point it's often long after the point at which the parents should have done something....

The thing is....getting the kids to care. That's the key, really.. And also the problem...

You can pass it off to the parent, sure. but what if they don't care enough to pick up the baton (which they should have been holding the entire time to begin with, of course).


You could make a law that required every parent/guardian to spend time with their kid for an hour a day. But how many freedoms would that infringe upon?
Sometimes the kids come around and start trying. Other times, they drop out or end up like you said.
You can't make people be good parents.
 
It's always been amazing to me what people, including myself, think they know. What state do you live in, Layla, I'd like to check it. I think holding a school legally liable for what happens to a child as he walks home from school is ludicrous. Gets hit by a car? School's liable. Gets kidnapped? School's liable. Breaks his arm? School's liable. I find that very hard to believe.

It's always been amazing to me how people think they are experts when they are not. I live in Missouri.
 
It's always been amazing to me how people think they are experts when they are not. I live in Missouri.

Thanks for the state, Layla. I've Googled every which way from Sunday and can find no confirmation either way. I will just disagree and leave it at that.

No offense.
 
Thanks for the state, Layla. I've Googled every which way from Sunday and can find no confirmation either way. I will just disagree and leave it at that.

No offense.
To the best of my knowledge, Layla_Z is correct about the liability of schools in Missouri. I'll do some checking to see if I can find references in the Revised Statutes (RSMo) but it may be a matter or case law, which is often difficult to research on-line unless you have access to a legal library of some kind.



PS
Yes, traffic can sometimes be an issue but let me ask you this. If schools aren't at least somewhat liable when the student is off school grounds then why are there crossing guards, which are sometimes (often?) paid out of school funds?
 
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I voted school grounds only. It seems like the best option.
 
So this means if the school knows bullying is going on they basically condone it once a student leaves campus. It sounds more like an easy way for teachers to skip out on teaching lessons and priceples that go past the regular school courses and curriculum, lessons that should be instilled at a young age. This job is entrusted to schools regardless of the time of day or place.
 
Thanks for the state, Layla. I've Googled every which way from Sunday and can find no confirmation either way. I will just disagree and leave it at that.

No offense.
Looking through the RSMo I couldn't find any mention of school liability or jurisdiction beyond school grounds, school events, and school buses (but see below). However, there were several areas where the phrase "within one thousand feet of school property" was used, which means there might be case law covering school liability up to that distance from the school. (For example, one of those areas barred suspended students from being within that distance, showing that the school does have some authority, even over suspended students, outside of school property.) That would also explain crossing guards.

There was also a relatively new (2007?) RSMo concerning bullying, which specifically mentioned cyber-bullying and on-line activities. Whether that means the school can poke it's nose into that kind of thing when it's not during school hours or not I don't know. An older RSMo says harassment is illegal and refers to another section of law which specifically cites "causing ... emotional distress" as a form of harassment.
 
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Looking through the RSMo I couldn't find any mention of school liability or jurisdiction beyond school grounds, school events, and school buses (but see below). However, there were several areas where the phrase "within one thousand feet of school property" was used, which means there might be case law covering school liability up to that distance from the school. (For example, one of those areas barred suspended students from being within that distance, showing that the school does have some authority, even over suspended students, outside of school property.) That would also explain crossing guards.

There was also a relatively new (2007?) RSMo concerning bullying, which specifically mentioned cyber-bullying and on-line activities. Whether that means the school can poke it's nose into that kind of thing when it's not during school hours or not I don't know. An older RSMo says harassment is illegal and refers to another section of law which specifically cites "causing ... emotional distress" as a form of harassment.

Very VERY nice of you to do some research. Thank you very much!! I'm always up to learning something on DP; it's one reason I'm here. Not to belabor the point, but the discussion is interesting. When Layla used the phrasing, "The school is responsible for their safety...", that to me conjures up legal liability. There is no doubt in my mind that, for instance, field trips or sporting events or riding the school bus...that kind of thing...represents a legal responsibility for the school -- to provide a safe environment and supervision, for instance. My argument is that, for example, once a student gets safely off the school bus, the school has no further duty or responsibility for them.

Oh!!! I learned something!!! School crossing guards, employed by the city of St. Louis, make $25.95 "per performance." Wow! I'd assume a "performance" might mean 3X a day -- morning/lunch/afternoon. That's pretty good money. Who knew?? They go on to say it's usually four hours a day total or less. And one of their responsibilities is to record license numbers of scofflaws and report them to their supervisors. And another responsibility of theirs is to report children's unsafe behavior to the school. Interesting!

That last one, about unsafe behavior, would indicate the school has "authority" over students in that situation. That, though, is different from "responsibility". Current Jobs With The City of St. Louis

In the City of Chicago, as an example, there is no school-provided transportation. One of the consequences of the city closing dozens of schools this past year is that students must traverse much longer distances to get to school sometimes putting them at risk for gang behavior, etc. The City of Chicago has established some "safe routes" for kids that have extra personnel trying to ensure kids' safety before and after school. If the city of Chicago, or the public school system, could be sued because a child was injured going to and from school? The system would be broke. When they've undertaken to provide these safe zones? Well, I'd say they may have bought a legal responsibility by their actions. (Maybe...try to sue the city or a school...I think it would be neigh onto impossible to win.)

It's an interesting concept...interesting discussion...Thank you for engaging me. ;)
 
No offense here, Layla. I seriously doubt what you say is true about the school's liability . . . unless the student is riding the bus; and then only until he exits it safely.
That's what I had always been told, going back to when I was a kid, that the school was responsible until you got home, regardless how you got home. I had always accepted it as such, and never really thought about it.

Now, whether or not that's really true, or they were lying to keep us in line, I don't know. I was never a trouble-maker, so I never had reason to test it out and find out.
 
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