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Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

  • School grounds only.

    Votes: 31 63.3%
  • Up to the time the student(s) get home.

    Votes: 8 16.3%
  • Anytime, anything, anywhere.

    Votes: 4 8.2%
  • Other

    Votes: 6 12.2%

  • Total voters
    49

radcen

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Example: Mary and her friends have been harassing Dorothy at school. Bullying, if you will. Said harassing and bullying eventually expands to walking home, and then beyond that to Facebook and the internet at all times of the day.

Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

Should the school's authority to discipline stop at the school's property line?

Should the school be responsible until the student(s) get home?

Should the school have authority to discipline at all hours, which would essentially be anything and anywhere?

What think you?
 
Example: Mary and her friends have been harassing Dorothy at school. Bullying, if you will. Said harassing and bullying eventually expands to walking home, and then beyond that to Facebook and the internet at all times of the day.

Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

Should the school's authority to discipline stop at the school's property line?

Should the school be responsible until the student(s) get home?

Should the school have authority to discipline at all hours, which would essentially be anything and anywhere?

What think you?

In the current environment bullying can be a 24/7 thing with social media. The school has a responsibility to keep all children in their charge safe and free of any harassment that they are aware of happening. Since they are all students of the school the policy may define sanctions but they could also give evidence to local authorities and have them handle it. If any of the cyberbullying occurs using school network, computers or the like then the school has the right and obligation to intervene.

Courts have ruled however schools have far reaching ability to discipline students even outside of school functions and off school property so we would have to see how the area handles such things.
 
Logically I'd think the school's responsibility should end when the student leaves school property - I would include school buses as school property. Even though some courts allow it I feel that school's disciplining students for behavior off premises is an overreach and an encroachment on parent's responsibilities.
 
In the current environment bullying can be a 24/7 thing with social media. The school has a responsibility to keep all children in their charge safe and free of any harassment that they are aware of happening. Since they are all students of the school the policy may define sanctions but they could also give evidence to local authorities and have them handle it. If any of the cyberbullying occurs using school network, computers or the like then the school has the right and obligation to intervene.

Courts have ruled however schools have far reaching ability to discipline students even outside of school functions and off school property so we would have to see how the area handles such things.
Right, courts have ruled that way, but this thread asks if that is appropriate. Just because a law was passed, or a court ruling handed down, does not necessarily mean it's a good idea.

Having said that, you make good points in the rest of your comment.
 
I agree that "responsibility" is the key word rather than "authority". Essentially, if something like this escalates and something major happens - say a physical assault or suicide - at what point is the school going to be blamed for "not acting". Anywhere we expect them to have responsibility they obviously need authority.

In practice, I think school authorities do have a level or responsibility for the actions of their students outside school, especially traveling to and from and where there is interaction between their students (such as on-line). Unlike incidents on the school grounds though, I think that is more responsibility to report to other authorities - notably parents and, in serious cases, police.

There is also the more general responsibility (shared with all the parents) of maintaining the kind of environment that discourages bullying and seeks to cut it out as easily as possible. Ultimately though, it's never something anyone can entirely eliminate and that should be recognised, especially before schools start getting condemned when something bad happens.
 
I think it would depend on quite a few things. Largely is the social media harassment having an effect on either kid or their classmates? We all know kids don't leave their social life at home. The harassment taking place outside of school is pretty likely happening at school either with the bully, other kids who read it, or both. So one can easily see how the school who is trying to combat bullying would see cyber bullying even after school hours as part of their anti bullying campaign.

The problem I see with schools, bullying and discipline is that their current methods do not work. I'm not going to pretend I have the solution but bullying trends do not appear to be reversing.
 
Logically I'd think the school's responsibility should end when the student leaves school property - I would include school buses as school property. Even though some courts allow it I feel that school's disciplining students for behavior off premises is an overreach and an encroachment on parent's responsibilities.
Exactly. I would go as far as holding both the school and the parents responsible when on school property.
 
The problem with deciding where a line "should" be drawn is the fact real life has no lines. The bullying which happens over text and Facebook over the weekend is brought into the schools on Monday. This is a problem our school dealt with just this week.

What "should" happen is parents SHOULD jerk on knot in their child's tail if their child is bullying someone when they are home. What SHOULD happen is the school should only be responsible for educating, not teaching manners and how to behave. What SHOULD happen is parents should be parents and be responsible for their child's actions.

Unfortunately, what SHOULD happen is not what actually happens. So the school has to step in and take action when behaviors over the weekend have an effect at school. The hard part is knowing what qualifies as affecting education. At the end of the day, if the school can help prevent the abuse of one child by another child or children, then they should do what they can to protect the first child.

At the end of the day, the school is part of the community and the community should do everything they can to protect children who need protecting.
 
The problem with deciding where a line "should" be drawn is the fact real life has no lines. The bullying which happens over text and Facebook over the weekend is brought into the schools on Monday. This is a problem our school dealt with just this week.

What "should" happen is parents SHOULD jerk on knot in their child's tail if their child is bullying someone when they are home. What SHOULD happen is the school should only be responsible for educating, not teaching manners and how to behave. What SHOULD happen is parents should be parents and be responsible for their child's actions.

Unfortunately, what SHOULD happen is not what actually happens. So the school has to step in and take action when behaviors over the weekend have an effect at school. The hard part is knowing what qualifies as affecting education.

What should happen is that the plug should be pulled on all social media for the one being bullied . . . and the ones doing the bullying. No phone with internet access. No texting ability. No freakin' nuthin'.

It is long past time that parents realize internet access, smartphones, dumb phones, unlimited texting plans, car keys, TVs in bedrooms, computers for other than school work . . . all if it . . . are perks to be earned. Not entitlements.
 
Schools = school grounds, school functions, school staff, school this - school that. Anytime they've created an environment or foster it via the presence of school officials it's their territory.

Anything beyond school = law enforcement.

Facebook? = parents/family and law enforcement.
 
The problem with deciding where a line "should" be drawn is the fact real life has no lines. The bullying which happens over text and Facebook over the weekend is brought into the schools on Monday. This is a problem our school dealt with just this week.

What "should" happen is parents SHOULD jerk on knot in their child's tail if their child is bullying someone when they are home. What SHOULD happen is the school should only be responsible for educating, not teaching manners and how to behave. What SHOULD happen is parents should be parents and be responsible for their child's actions.

Unfortunately, what SHOULD happen is not what actually happens. So the school has to step in and take action when behaviors over the weekend have an effect at school. The hard part is knowing what qualifies as affecting education. At the end of the day, if the school can help prevent the abuse of one child by another child or children, then they should do what they can to protect the first child.

At the end of the day, the school is part of the community and the community should do everything they can to protect children who need protecting.

I'm not sure I get the point of your first sentence. Once the bullying that had been happening via social media is brought into school it becomes a matter for the school to deal with. If it stays outside of school it's a matter for parents to deal with. That's not to say that the school can't inform the parents if they become aware of bullying that occurs outside of school - it just should not be their responsibility to resolve it. And they certainly shouldn't be suspending, expelling students over behavior that occurs outside of school.
 
What should happen is that the plug should be pulled on all social media for the one being bullied . . . and the ones doing the bullying. No phone with internet access. No texting ability. No freakin' nuthin'.

It is long past time that parents realize internet access, smartphones, dumb phones, unlimited texting plans, car keys, TVs in bedrooms, computers for other than school work . . . all if it . . . are perks to be earned. Not entitlements.


Amen Maggie. Well said.
 
What should happen is that the plug should be pulled on all social media for the one being bullied . . . and the ones doing the bullying. No phone with internet access. No texting ability. No freakin' nuthin'.

It is long past time that parents realize internet access, smartphones, dumb phones, unlimited texting plans, car keys, TVs in bedrooms, computers for other than school work . . . all if it . . . are perks to be earned. Not entitlements.

Surely you mean in the rest of the world but not here in America.
 
What should happen is that the plug should be pulled on all social media for the one being bullied . . . and the ones doing the bullying. No phone with internet access. No texting ability. No freakin' nuthin'.

It is long past time that parents realize internet access, smartphones, dumb phones, unlimited texting plans, car keys, TVs in bedrooms, computers for other than school work . . . all if it . . . are perks to be earned. Not entitlements.

I agree, give them one of those granny cell phones. Calls home, parents work, and 911.
 
What should happen is that the plug should be pulled on all social media for the one being bullied . . . and the ones doing the bullying. No phone with internet access. No texting ability. No freakin' nuthin'.
I assume you mean by the parents, not a governmental authority, right?

Why I'm certainly no "big bad government" tin foil hat guy, it would not do at all for government to remove access to information sources for those reasons.

It is long past time that parents realize internet access, smartphones, dumb phones, unlimited texting plans, car keys, TVs in bedrooms, computers for other than school work . . . all if it . . . are perks to be earned. Not entitlements.
Agreed, but at the same time, some kids are picked on simply because they do not have the same level of social skills other children do. I'm not sure I agree that being a victim should mean one should not have a chance to enjoy themselves. I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it, and I don't disagree with your reasoning. But maybe instead of the victim having social media pulled, the parent just goes through with the child and removes all potential for social media abuse.
I'm not sure I get the point of your first sentence.
The point was you cannot draw lines. It would be nice to compartmentalize a child's life and assign responsibility for it to different authorities, but it simply doesn't work that way.

Once the bullying that had been happening via social media is brought into school it becomes a matter for the school to deal with. If it stays outside of school it's a matter for parents to deal with. That's not to say that the school can't inform the parents if they become aware of bullying that occurs outside of school - it just should not be their responsibility to resolve it. And they certainly shouldn't be suspending, expelling students over behavior that occurs outside of school.
But life just isn't that simple. For example, what if one student tells another they are going to beat them up when they see them at school. Well, they get to school and the first child could be afraid of the bully, but since nothing has technically happened, are you saying the first child should go through school all day in fear?

There's no good solution here, because the best solution would be proactive parents teaching their children respect for others. But we know there will always be bullies, some people just don't know any other way. So it is then the job of the community, including the school, to do what they can to protect the bullied child.
 
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I assume you mean by the parents, not a governmental authority, right?

Why I'm certainly no "big bad government" tin foil hat guy, it would not do at all for government to remove access to information sources for those reasons.

Agreed, but at the same time, some kids are picked on simply because they do not have the same level of social skills other children do. I'm not sure I agree that being a victim should mean one should not have a chance to enjoy themselves. I understand what you are saying and why you are saying it, and I don't disagree with your reasoning. But maybe instead of the victim having social media pulled, the parent just goes through with the child and removes all potential for social media abuse.

Yeah, I'm talking about parents taking these things away. I can easily agree with your thoughts on the one being bullied...if one could police the posts so the child wouldn't see them. But I don't think that can be done. Even if you defriend the trouble-makers, unless all one's other friends defriend as well, their posts will still be seen. I don't know . . . maybe a month's hiatus and then try again...?

Why would I want my kid to stand in a room surrounded by people who are making fun of him and calling him names? That's just plain sadistic. Get him out of the room. Sign him off social media. Same thing.
 
Yeah, I'm talking about parents taking these things away. I can easily agree with your thoughts on the one being bullied...if one could police the posts so the child wouldn't see them. But I don't think that can be done. Even if you defriend the trouble-makers, unless all one's other friends defriend as well, their posts will still be seen. I don't know . . . maybe a month's hiatus and then try again...?

Why would I want my kid to stand in a room surrounded by people who are making fun of him and calling him names? That's just plain sadistic. Get him out of the room. Sign him off social media. Same thing.
The hard part about this, though, is that even if you disengage the kid being bullied, the bullies are still doing it amongst themselves and basically building it up for later when they are all in the same place physically, i.e. school, etc.

I still have a very hard time accepting a school's authority after a kid has arrived home, but with the advent of social media things aren't as easily defined or cut-and-dried as they used to be when I was a kid.
 
I agree, give them one of those granny cell phones. Calls home, parents work, and 911.

You and Maggie are coming up with some common sense solutions. Bravo
 
The hard part about this, though, is that even if you disengage the kid being bullied, the bullies are still doing it amongst themselves and basically building it up for later when they are all in the same place physically, i.e. school, etc.

I still have a very hard time accepting a school's authority after a kid has arrived home, but with the advent of social media things aren't as easily defined or cut-and-dried as they used to be when I was a kid.

If kids are doing it in person at school/on the bus, imo, the school should act swiftly and decisively. Lunch time spent in the school office alone. No extra-curricular activities. Period. Study halls spent in the school office alone. No outside school functions . . . no clubs . . . no dances. Assemblies recorded for their viewing pleasure. Assembly time spent in the school office alone. Make the price for bullying isolation and it'll stop.

At the beginning of the school year, an anti-bullying handbook given out describing its harmful effects, giving kids an avenue to report it, and warning everyone that, "Here are the rules. Break them? Here are the consequences." Last page in handbook is a parent/student signature page to be kept on file.

All reports documented in writing. Child suspended for two days and must bring parent back to get re-admitted. If this were school policy, bullying on school property would stop. And that's more than half the battle.
 
If kids are doing it in person at school/on the bus, imo, the school should act swiftly and decisively. Lunch time spent in the school office alone. No extra-curricular activities. Period. Study halls spent in the school office alone. No outside school functions . . . no clubs . . . no dances. Assemblies recorded for their viewing pleasure. Assembly time spent in the school office alone. Make the price for bullying isolation and it'll stop.

At the beginning of the school year, an anti-bullying handbook given out describing its harmful effects, giving kids an avenue to report it, and warning everyone that, "Here are the rules. Break them? Here are the consequences." Last page in handbook is a parent/student signature page to be kept on file.

All reports documented in writing. Child suspended for two days and must bring parent back to get re-admitted. If this were school policy, bullying on school property would stop. And that's more than half the battle.

And the suspended child should not be home alone, either.
 
But life just isn't that simple. For example, what if one student tells another they are going to beat them up when they see them at school. Well, they get to school and the first child could be afraid of the bully, but since nothing has technically happened, are you saying the first child should go through school all day in fear?

There's no good solution here, because the best solution would be proactive parents teaching their children respect for others. But we know there will always be bullies, some people just don't know any other way. So it is then the job of the community, including the school, to do what they can to protect the bullied child.


No what I'm saying is that if nothing happened in school it's the parent's responsibility to deal with it not the schools. The school's role in this case is to inform the parents and to remind them of the consequences to their child should the behavior occur on school property.

I agree with your sentiment regarding protecting bullied kids - though I'd couple that with teaching the bullied how to effectively deal with the problem because they will face it in adult life. I do think we can draw workable lines in terms of responsibility to dealing with the behavior.
 
Example: Mary and her friends have been harassing Dorothy at school. Bullying, if you will. Said harassing and bullying eventually expands to walking home, and then beyond that to Facebook and the internet at all times of the day.

Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

Should the school's authority to discipline stop at the school's property line?

Should the school be responsible until the student(s) get home?

Should the school have authority to discipline at all hours, which would essentially be anything and anywhere?

What think you?

I picked other. Their authority to discipline only extends as far as the parent says. If the child misbehaves then the school should inform the parent and between the two they can come up with a suitable punishment...if any. And when I say that the school should get in touch with the parent I mean phone calls, no notes. If the parent ignores the phone calls then show up on their doorstep. If the parent doesn't engage then and only then can the school discipline as they see fit. And even then it only extends to things that the student does during school time and on school property. If the harrassment happens off school property then those school officials should call the cops just like any other ordinary citizen.

The only sanctioned discipline actions that would be acceptable for the school to do on thier own without parental permission is detention and in school suspension (IE make student sit in office all day reading thier text books depending on the period they are suppose to be in). And even then the parent could override.
 
Exactly. I would go as far as holding both the school and the parents responsible when on school property.

But we must get them newer generations used to all encompassing authority to be at the ready with discipline 24/7.
 
If kids are doing it in person at school/on the bus, imo, the school should act swiftly and decisively. Lunch time spent in the school office alone. No extra-curricular activities. Period. Study halls spent in the school office alone. No outside school functions . . . no clubs . . . no dances. Assemblies recorded for their viewing pleasure. Assembly time spent in the school office alone. Make the price for bullying isolation and it'll stop.

At the beginning of the school year, an anti-bullying handbook given out describing its harmful effects, giving kids an avenue to report it, and warning everyone that, "Here are the rules. Break them? Here are the consequences." Last page in handbook is a parent/student signature page to be kept on file.

All reports documented in writing. Child suspended for two days and must bring parent back to get re-admitted. If this were school policy, bullying on school property would stop. And that's more than half the battle.
I don't think it would stop in an absolute sense, but I do think these ideas are good and could greatly reduce it. I don't think it would stop because there are always going to be some people who are just jerks and will do it in spite of any consequences.
 
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