View Poll Results: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

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  • School grounds only.

    39 67.24%
  • Up to the time the student(s) get home.

    8 13.79%
  • Anytime, anything, anywhere.

    4 6.90%
  • Other

    7 12.07%
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Thread: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

  1. #71
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    What is your point? That it's ok to waste my money and other people's? To do the jobs that parents should be doing?
    1: How can the parents know that they have a child that needs disciplining if the teacher can't get ahold of them? Think the child will voluntarily tell the parent that "Hey! I bullied a kid at school today because I thought they were nerds!"?

    2: You consider it wasteing money to do everything that they can to get ahold of the parent/s directly. I don't. IE: My point was that using the whole "I pay taxes" schtick is nothing more than a self righteous superiority complex from someone that thinks that their opinion is the only one that matters because they pay taxes. Totally ignoring the very real fact that those that disagree with them ALSO pay taxes.
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Schools = school grounds, school functions, school staff, school this - school that. Anytime they've created an environment or foster it via the presence of school officials it's their territory.

    Anything beyond school = law enforcement.

    Facebook? = parents/family and law enforcement.
    Just to add to that, I see no problem with the school informing parents and/or government offices (law enforcement, social services, or whatever might be appropriate) of a perceived problem.



    PS
    A little off topic but ...
    I can also see where a student posting a copy of a test, especially if it includes the correct answers, could also be grounds for school action.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-24-14 at 05:32 AM.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    1: How can the parents know that they have a child that needs disciplining if the teacher can't get ahold of them? Think the child will voluntarily tell the parent that "Hey! I bullied a kid at school today because I thought they were nerds!"?

    2: You consider it wasteing money to do everything that they can to get ahold of the parent/s directly. I don't. IE: My point was that using the whole "I pay taxes" schtick is nothing more than a self righteous superiority complex from someone that thinks that their opinion is the only one that matters because they pay taxes. Totally ignoring the very real fact that those that disagree with them ALSO pay taxes.
    Have every parent's work number (they most likely do anyway....there's always an 'emergency contact). Call them at work and leave a message....might even be motivating if it makes them look bad.

    I can be self-righteous when I see my money wasted. Just because it's about money doesnt excuse incompetence and wasted and poor processes and discipline. That just enables more bureaucracy.

    But I really do blame the parents more, not the schools. We've had a teacher here tell us directly that many policies are not for the welfare of the kids but to protect the schools and administrators and even teachers from legal action from pissed off parents. Even if they are wrong, the schools cannot afford to fight them in court.

    It was the thread about the kid who was kicked out of school for making a gun with his fingers.
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  4. #74
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Have every parent's work number (they most likely do anyway....there's always an 'emergency contact). Call them at work and leave a message....might even be motivating if it makes them look bad.
    Messages can be lost and ignored. I'd prefer putting them in a situation where they HAVE to acknowledge it and do something about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I can be self-righteous when I see my money wasted. Just because it's about money doesnt excuse incompetence and wasted and poor processes and discipline. That just enables more bureaucracy.
    Again, its not just your money. Other people have valid opinions on what is and isn't a waste. It is good to know though that you think that getting parents directly involved by putting them in a situation where they have to actually deal with the problem and not just ignore it is a waste...and you are by your own words, self righteous about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    But I really do blame the parents more, not the schools. We've had a teacher here tell us directly that many policies are not for the welfare of the kids but to protect the schools and administrators and even teachers from legal action from pissed off parents. Even if they are wrong, the schools cannot afford to fight them in court.
    Another reason to force the parents into a situation where they have to deal with the problem directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    It was the thread about the kid who was kicked out of school for making a gun with his fingers.
    Whats this got to do with what we have been talking about? Did I miss some segway or something?
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Depends... if a student is posting stuff at home that is bullying another student then the school should be involved. If the student is doing any number of things that could harm students, the school's reputation, etc. then the school should be involved and assess consequences.
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sababa View Post
    In the current environment bullying can be a 24/7 thing with social media. The school has a responsibility to keep all children in their charge safe and free of any harassment that they are aware of happening. Since they are all students of the school the policy may define sanctions but they could also give evidence to local authorities and have them handle it. If any of the cyberbullying occurs using school network, computers or the like then the school has the right and obligation to intervene.

    Courts have ruled however schools have far reaching ability to discipline students even outside of school functions and off school property so we would have to see how the area handles such things.
    Let's get this straight, the school has no responsibility to discipline the students unless an activity occurs on school grounds or affects activities on school grounds. The school does not have the right to suspend or in any other way discipline a student in situations where the student criticizes the school and is disciplined because of "disorderly conduct" . Bullying is a real issue, but it is a shame that it serves as one of many covers to treat students like cattle and machines, and that is how students are treated. Don't give me the whole story about the school being a superior institution. Students continue to suffer miseducation under a system that doesn't even care about them in the first place besides the fact that the parents pay the salaries of the Administrators and the supervisors and the educational bureaucracy that doesn't care about students OR teachers, and that's why we have teacher unions, but that is a whole story of its own.

  7. #77
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Example: Mary and her friends have been harassing Dorothy at school. Bullying, if you will. Said harassing and bullying eventually expands to walking home, and then beyond that to Facebook and the internet at all times of the day.

    Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Should the school's authority to discipline stop at the school's property line?

    Should the school be responsible until the student(s) get home?

    Should the school have authority to discipline at all hours, which would essentially be anything and anywhere?

    What think you?
    I frankly don't think the schools should have authority at all.

    Liberty to control behavior, and to remove disruptions to learning should be the only things granted to a school.

    Schools aren't social experiments they are houses of education strictly. The only authority they should have over behavior with in the school grounds is to remove disruptions.

    The only resolution for bullying is to out bully the bully. Going and telling mommy teaches a child that mommy will solve all of your problems.

    When I was a boy about 9 years old, I had a bully named Patrick. This boy was 14 easy. He lived on my street. He stole my bike once I saw it in his yard. I was not his only victim either, two other boys were targeted by Patrick.

    I went home and told my mommy about my bike. She went to Patrick's house and spoke with Patrick's. He brought me my bicycle and made Patrick apologize. That was like putting gasoline on a fire. He stole my coat, my school bag and all sorts of things. He was doing this to the other young boys on my block.

    The aforementioned two boys and I hatched a plan. We went home and got some broom sticks and beat the everloving piss out of Patrick. That worked. It was a permanent solution. Patrick's parents still live in that house and any time I saw him after that he never even looked at me.

    We need to teach kids to stand up for themselves, not lay down and take it. We are encouraging cowardice in children.
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  8. #78
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Messages can be lost and ignored. I'd prefer putting them in a situation where they HAVE to acknowledge it and do something about it.

    Again, its not just your money. Other people have valid opinions on what is and isn't a waste. It is good to know though that you think that getting parents directly involved by putting them in a situation where they have to actually deal with the problem and not just ignore it is a waste...and you are by your own words, self righteous about it.



    Another reason to force the parents into a situation where they have to deal with the problem directly.


    Whats this got to do with what we have been talking about? Did I miss some segway or something?
    It's just silly to focus on 'contacting the parents' like it's a big issue here (in terms of ability, not when it's appropriate to do so). They have emergency contact numbers....and this is not an emergency. Timing may be more relevant in an actual emergency but not regarding discipline...

    and it is my money and the only thing that legitimizes the govt TAKING it from me is the production of a better, more educated citizenry. And I certainly do believe in holding parents accountable and dragging them into being more involved with their kid's discipline. The school shouldnt over reach into the home...it should make the penalties on the kid in school have consequences that also affect the parents and motivate them to ACT at home.

    The $$ I referred to came up in a thread where they had ZERO tolerance policies against guns and kicked a kid out for making a gun with his fingers. The zero tolerance policy enables the school to avoid actually examining issues on an individual basis and therefore avoid claims of prejudice or unfairness from parents....which parents can challenge in courts. Win, lose, or settle, it all costs the school $$ so it's cheaper to have mindless zero tolerance policies. It was tangential to this issue and relevant in the post...sorry if it was confusing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #79
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Example: Mary and her friends have been harassing Dorothy at school. Bullying, if you will. Said harassing and bullying eventually expands to walking home, and then beyond that to Facebook and the internet at all times of the day.

    Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Should the school's authority to discipline stop at the school's property line?

    Should the school be responsible until the student(s) get home?

    Should the school have authority to discipline at all hours, which would essentially be anything and anywhere?

    What think you?
    It's my understanding that the school's liability lasts until the child gets home so bullying on the walk home would be the school's responsibility. As for what happens on Facebook, that is another matter. so much of that can bleed over to the school day. Are the kids accessing Facebook while at school? Is it being discussed?
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  10. #80
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    Re: Where should the line be for a public school's authority over students?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    If kids are doing it in person at school/on the bus, imo, the school should act swiftly and decisively. Lunch time spent in the school office alone. No extra-curricular activities. Period. Study halls spent in the school office alone. No outside school functions . . . no clubs . . . no dances. Assemblies recorded for their viewing pleasure. Assembly time spent in the school office alone. Make the price for bullying isolation and it'll stop.

    At the beginning of the school year, an anti-bullying handbook given out describing its harmful effects, giving kids an avenue to report it, and warning everyone that, "Here are the rules. Break them? Here are the consequences." Last page in handbook is a parent/student signature page to be kept on file.

    All reports documented in writing. Child suspended for two days and must bring parent back to get re-admitted. If this were school policy, bullying on school property would stop. And that's more than half the battle.
    In this state, the state has set the penalty for bullying at 10 days out of school suspension. Since at our school you can't make up work missed due to suspension and a suspension counts as an unexcused absence, then the real penalty is failing all your classes and repeating the year. Therefore, I've never seen that used.

    I do agree that schools should act swiftly and harshly. You'd be amazed the fight parents give when their child is punished for that kind of behavior.
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