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U.S. - Russia, who wins?

Will the Ukraine lead to further Regional Conflicts?

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grip

grip

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Russia seems to have Crimea, locked up, as a part of their country.

How far will the US and EU pursue this issue, after the Crimea province and Ukraine leadership is settled and stable?

Is this about energy only, or are we really concerned about the people?

Crimea votes on joining Russia amid soaring tensions

Crimeans voted Sunday in a referendum to join former political master Russia as tensions escalated in eastern Ukraine in the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War.

Ukraine's new leaders and the West have branded as "illegal" the vote in the strategic Black Sea peninsula that has been under the de facto control of Russian forces for weeks.

US Secretary of State John Kerry demanded that Moscow pull back its forces to their bases in Crimea in return for constitutional reforms in Ukraine to protect minority rights.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said he would respect the outcome of the referendum, but the European Union condemned the vote and said it would be deciding on sanctions against Russia on Monday.


"As Ukrainians take the necessary political measures going forward, Russia must reciprocate by pulling forces back to base, and addressing the tensions and concerns about military engagement," the official said.


Ukraine's interim President Oleksandr Turchynov, who last month replaced ousted pro-Kremlin leader Viktor Yanukovych after three months of protests, also accused Russia of fanning tensions in eastern Ukraine as a way of justifying an invasion.

"The result has been pre-planned by the Kremlin as a formal justification to send in its troops and start a war that will destroy people's lives and the economic prospects for Crimea," he said.

The European Union said the referendum was "illegal and illegitimate" and again condemned Moscow's "unprovoked violation" of Ukraine's sovereignty.

While the West has been powerless to stop Crimea's annexation, Russia faces a painful round of sanctions against top officials that Washington and EU nations are set to unveil on Monday and it could be ostracised or even ejected from the Group of Eight (G8) leading world powers.
Click to expand...



McCain: 'Russia is a gas station masquerading as a country'

Sen. John McCain returned from a trip to Ukraine on Sunday, calling for "a fundamental re-assessment" of the United States' relationship with Russian Vladimir Putin.

“No more reset buttons," McCain told Candy Crowley on CNN's "State of the Union." Treat him for what he is. That does not mean re-ignition of the Cold War.”

McCain, who has been critical of the Obama administration's response to the crisis in Crimea, said the White House should target Russia's oil exports.

"Russia is a gas station masquerading as a country,” McCain said. “It’s kleptocracy, it’s corruption. It’s a nation that’s really only dependent upon oil and gas for their economy. And so economic sanctions are important. Get some military assistance to Ukrainians, at least so they can defend themselves. Resume the missile defense system in Poland and the Czech Republic. Look at Moldova and Georgia, both of whom are occupied by Russian troops as we speak, a path toward membership in NATO.”

Speaking in Kiev with a delegation of fellow U.S. senators on Saturday, McCain called for the United States to provide long-term military support — both "lethal and non-lethal" equipment — to Ukraine. "[It is] the right and decent thing to do," McCain said.


"Crimea has exposed the disturbing lack of realism that has characterized our foreign policy under President Obama," McCain wrote. "It is this worldview, or lack of one, that must change."

McCain added: "Crimea must be the place where President Obama recognizes this reality and begins to restore the credibility of the United States as a world leader."
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While I don't think Putin's ambitions are quite "Hitleresque" in scope, I don't think he has any intention of stopping any time soon either.

He's going to continue pushing his luck for so long as the West continues to give him the leeway to do so.

He might not want to "conquer the world," per se, but he certainly seems to have his heart set on re-establishing Russian hegemony in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. So far, we've simply been letting him get away with it.
 
Gathomas88 said:
While I don't think Putin's ambitions are quite "Hitleresque" in scope, I don't think he has any intention of stopping any time soon either.

He's going to continue pushing his luck for so long as the West continues to give him the leeway to do so.

He might not want to "conquer the world," per se, but he certainly seems to have his heart set on re-establishing Russian hegemony in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. So far, we've simply been letting him get away with it.
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I think Putin has done the right thing. I think McCain should be institutionalized for his comments. Everybody knows that Russia encompasses 10 or 11 time zones, or do they. ?
"Gas Station," what a maroon.
 
So I was wondering....

If the Crimean people want to join Russia, and legitimately voted to do so, have we any right to stop them?
 
Let him have it. Crimea's only been in the Ukraine since Khrushchev put it there in '54 anyway- it was all the USSR and it was just an adminstative thing. Why does anyone care if it's returned to Russia?
 
Grand Mal said:
Let him have it. Crimea's only been in the Ukraine since Khrushchev put it there in '54 anyway- it was all the USSR and it was just an administrative thing. Why does anyone care if it's returned to Russia?
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I would care only if the method of transfer involved coercion by Russians against Crimeans
 
The Mark said:
I would care only if the method of transfer involved coercion by Russians against Crimeans
Click to expand...

Which suggests is happening. If Russia wanted a clean vote, it would extract its troops, return to pre-occupation levels at its base and let them vote on their own.

Instead, he's massing forces on Eastern Ukraine's border, moving armor near the ferry station across from Kretch and running daily reinforcement drops into Crimea.

Is a contract where you sign over all your assets to me legitimate if I put a gun to your head and tell you to sign or die?
 
grip said:
Russia seems to have Crimea, locked up, as a part of their country.

How far will the US and EU pursue this issue, after the Crimea province and Ukraine leadership is settled and stable?

Is this about energy only, or are we really concerned about the people?
Click to expand...



Heya Grip. :2wave: I see ya picked up Johnny Quests remarks about Russia. You know that one is going to go viral. :mrgreen:




If Putin does then moves to annex Crimea, another wave of sanctions, this time economic and more painful, are supposed to kick in.

But Kremlin watchers like Fyodor Lukyanov, editor of the Russian quarterly "Russia in Global Affairs," notes that Putin has already decided to annex Crimea, and that no Western sanctions will deter him.

"Putin doesn't care about what others will say," said Lukyanov. "And the West is demonstrating political dementia thinking that these individuals will be terrified by visa bans and asset freezes."

Lukyanov also bets that the Kremlin has every chance of winning — or at least stalemating — a "war of sanctions" against the U.S. and European Union.

They believe the recent build-up of Russian forces along Ukraine’s border and even Saturday’s incursion into mainland Ukraine by dozens of Russian troops - to commandeer a Crimean natural gas pumping station - are signals to the Ukrainian government in Kiev.

"It’s part of a campaign to put more pressure on Ukraine," said Andrei Soldatov, a Russian security analyst and blogger, "and to send a clear message to Kiev — leave Crimea alone or we can take more."

Whatever is up the Russian leader’s sleeve, he seems to be holding all the cards. And — as always — has left everyone guessing....snip~

What's Putin's Next Move? It's Anyone's Guess, Experts Say - NBC News

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/187296-ukrainian-crisis-2014-a-74.html

Post 733. ;)
 
Gathomas88 said:
While I don't think Putin's ambitions are quite "Hitleresque" in scope, I don't think he has any intention of stopping any time soon either.

He's going to continue pushing his luck for so long as the West continues to give him the leeway to do so.

He might not want to "conquer the world," per se, but he certainly seems to have his heart set on re-establishing Russian hegemony in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. So far, we've simply been letting him get away with it.
Click to expand...

IMO he seriously overreached here.

The argument that Russia reserves the right to invade and occupy areas where ethnic Russians are at "risk" should frighten every nation around Russia that has any material number of ethnic Russians. Why would any nation who respects its own sovereignty and territorial integrity want to move closer into Russia's sphere of influence? There's no question now that Ukraine is forever lost to Russia. Instead of ensuring that Ukraine will move solidly East, it will now move solidly West into the EU sphere of influence. Expect other FSU nations to follow suit now that they know the Bear is not their friend, but a nation that now views them as lunch. Furthermore, the EU has seen the true face of Putin and knows they cannot trust them at all. Expect hydrocarbon domestic production to boost as well as more contracts with US exporters and Middle Eastern suppliers. EU is reliant on them for about 30% and that amount can be severely reduced over the next couple of years.

I don't think Russia has any international support for what it just did. China is absolutely livid over what Putin did as it now grants more international justification for nations to invade China and give its various areas who are vying for independence or more autonomy just that. China normally lock steps votes with Russia, but the recent UN resolution they refused to veto. China has to be calling Russia up screaming at what they're doing.
 
I do not see any "US vs Russia".
 
Why would Russia remove its troops at this point, when it would just mean that EU/U.S. troops would move in and take their place, prop up the illegal interim government, and divorce the Ukraine from its relationship with Russia which more than 60% of the people there don't support (according to polls)?

If the west didn't want Russia involved then maybe they should stop using their intelligence agencies to create internal agitation in countries like Ukraine, disguised as pro-democracy pro-EU movements.

Russia has done some scary **** in the past, like with Georgia, but this time Russia is 100% entitled to do what it's doing.
 
obvious Child said:
IMO he seriously overreached here.

The argument that Russia reserves the right to invade and occupy areas where ethnic Russians are at "risk" should frighten every nation around Russia that has any material number of ethnic Russians. Why would any nation who respects its own sovereignty and territorial integrity want to move closer into Russia's sphere of influence? There's no question now that Ukraine is forever lost to Russia. Instead of ensuring that Ukraine will move solidly East, it will now move solidly West into the EU sphere of influence. Expect other FSU nations to follow suit now that they know the Bear is not their friend, but a nation that now views them as lunch. Furthermore, the EU has seen the true face of Putin and knows they cannot trust them at all. Expect hydrocarbon domestic production to boost as well as more contracts with US exporters and Middle Eastern suppliers. EU is reliant on them for about 30% and that amount can be severely reduced over the next couple of years.

I don't think Russia has any international support for what it just did. China is absolutely livid over what Putin did as it now grants more international justification for nations to invade China and give its various areas who are vying for independence or more autonomy just that. China normally lock steps votes with Russia, but the recent UN resolution they refused to veto. China has to be calling Russia up screaming at what they're doing.
Click to expand...


He over-reached? When none can respond Militarily? When Russia can veto at any time with the Security Counsel? When he took the Crimea without firing a shot?

Btw China Abstained. Not so Upset with Russia. But not backing their play either.


Since Russia is an original permanent member of the UN Security Council, she can and will veto any UN condemnation resolutions and diplomatic avenues of redress.

As expected, Russia has vetoed a United Nations Security Council resolution sponsored by the United States (41 co-sponsors) which declares the March 16 referendum in Crimea illegal and called upon the international community to not acknowledge any change in the officially recognized and legal status of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. The decision of China to abstain signifies that the Russian government is virtually isolated politically in its declarations that the Crimean referendum is legal and binding.

Voting "Yes": United States, United Kingdom, France, Lithuania, Rwanda, Chile, Argentina, Australia, Republic of Korea, Nigeria, Chad, Jordan, Luxembourg

Voting "No": Russian Federation

Abstain: China

Security Council Fails to Adopt Text Urging Member States Not to Recognize Planned 16 March Referendum in Ukraine’s Crimea Region.....snip~

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/187296-ukrainian-crisis-2014-a-73.html

Put up by Simplexity earlier today. ;)
 
MMC said:
He over-reached? When none can respond Militarily? When Russia can veto at any time with the Security Counsel? When he took the Crimea without firing a shot?

Btw China Abstained. Not so Upset with Russia. But not backing their play either.
Click to expand...

Considering that China typically lock step votes, this is the best that could have happened. Russia broke China's cardinal rule. They cannot be happy watching their ally break what is essentially their "prime directive" in foreign policy.

Russia over reached when you consider the implications down the line.
 
obvious Child said:
Considering that China typically lock step votes, this is the best that could have happened. Russia broke China's cardinal rule. They cannot be happy watching their ally break what is essentially their "prime directive" in foreign policy.

Russia over reached when you consider the implications down the line.
Click to expand...

China has played the same game with Taiwan over and over again. Russia is NOT their ally. In fact they believe Russia to be holding a good chunk of what is rightfully their territory (Siberia). They continually hold "war games" along that border looking for an opportunity to take it back. If anything I'd think China's respect for Russia went up a notch or two seeing how they managed this.
 
grip said:
Russia seems to have Crimea, locked up, as a part of their country.

How far will the US and EU pursue this issue, after the Crimea province and Ukraine leadership is settled and stable?

Is this about energy only, or are we really concerned about the people?
Click to expand...

The US isn't going to do ****. If one of them were part of the Muslim Brotherhood, then Obama might actually do something.
 
obvious Child said:
Considering that China typically lock step votes, this is the best that could have happened. Russia broke China's cardinal rule. They cannot be happy watching their ally break what is essentially their "prime directive" in foreign policy.

Russia over reached when you consider the implications down the line.
Click to expand...


Not as much as people think. From Gladiator.


Fuel means the type you need, when you are short. Gas and Oil are not easily interchangeable, to any large degree. The US has Gas, but prohibits liquefied exports.


"Led by the powerhouse lobbying of the American Petroleum Institute, a coalition of Fortune 500 energy companies are using the Ukraine crisis to spur Congress to approve a key policy goal: Easing regulations on the export of U.S. natural gas.

Despite a decade-long boom in U.S. natural gas production, very little of America's vast gas reserves are exported.. That's because strict regulations on the transfer and storage of gas have made it impossible to profitably ship out of the U.S.

Oil and gas companies have paid Washington lobbyists millions in recent years to challenge the strict export rules -- to no avail, until now."


U.S. Push For Natural Gas Exports To Help Ukraine Won't Actually Help Ukraine

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/187296-ukrainian-crisis-2014-a-65.html
 
clownboy said:
China has played the same game with Taiwan over and over again.
Click to expand...

Not really. Formosa along with a few other islands have always historically been Chinese in some sense.

Russia is NOT their ally. In fact they believe Russia to be holding a good chunk of what is rightfully their territory (Siberia).
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Russia is their ally from an economic and ideological standpoint. Ukraine sits on a great deal of former Polish territory. Do you see anyone scraping over that? Besides, China knows it can get the value out of Siberia without owning it. It's not that big of a deal as opposed to its issues with Japan and South Korea who is far more strict on who get access to the resources. And let's not even start on the Spratley Islands.

They continually hold "war games" along that border looking for an opportunity to take it back. If anything I'd think China's respect for Russia went up a notch or two seeing how they managed this.
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Meh. China and Russia have moved long past the cold war. As for China's respect, that remains to be seen. Russia could be in for a big artificial recession soon.
 
Grand Mal said:
Let him have it. Crimea's only been in the Ukraine since Khrushchev put it there in '54 anyway- it was all the USSR and it was just an adminstative thing. Why does anyone care if it's returned to Russia?
Click to expand...

Before Khrushchev the Ukraine asked to come under being a protective under the Russian Czarist back during the mid 1600's. They remained so until 1920 when the Ukraine became part of the USSR.

I think there is some comparisons to the Sudetenland during the 1930's and Crimea today.

When you have foreigners living in a country who refuse to assimilate and hold on to the customs, culture and language of their motherland, **** like this happens.

Mexico is watching closely at what Putin is doing and what little Obama can do because we are no longer the super power we were before 2009. I'm waiting for the Mexican Army to annex the city of Los Angeles.
 
Russia wins in the short term...but loses in the long term. If Putin decides to "Expand" much more, the western backlash from both Europe and the U.S. will devastate an economy dependent on both for prosperity.
 
A lil bit more from China....;)


China, often a Russian ally in blocking Western moves in the U.N. Security Council, was more cautious, saying economic sanctions were not the best way to solve the crisis and avoiding comment on the Crimean referendum.

But Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov ridiculed calls for Russia to join an international "contact group" with Ukraine proposed by the West, saying they "make us smile".

Unarmed military observers from the pan-European Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe were blocked from entering Crimea for a second day in a row on Friday, the OSCE said on Twitter.

The United Nations said it had sent its assistant secretary-general for human rights, Ivan Simonovic, to Kiev to conduct a preliminary humans rights assessment.....snip~

http://news.yahoo.com/crimea-votes-j...0--sector.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/187971-russia-warns-us-against-hasty-actions-ukraine-3.html
 
US vs. Russia, who wins?
No one wins. One loses worse than the other, perhaps, but there is no winner.

That's why there is unlikely to be any real conflict between the US and Russia. There may be some leaping, hooting, rattling of sabers, and trash talk, but no real conflict.
 
Gathomas88 said:
While I don't think Putin's ambitions are quite "Hitleresque" in scope, I don't think he has any intention of stopping any time soon either.

He's going to continue pushing his luck for so long as the West continues to give him the leeway to do so.

He might not want to "conquer the world," per se, but he certainly seems to have his heart set on re-establishing Russian hegemony in Eastern Europe and Central Asia. So far, we've simply been letting him get away with it.
Click to expand...

That's how I see it too. I think he wants to bring back a form of the USSR and push for a Russian Empire in Europe.
 
The 'Reds', eh? :lol: That Russia's become the archetypal shadow that looms large in the American psyche, only illustrates the impact of over half a century of generational indoctrination. The shameless hypocrisy here far outweighs the gravity of Russia's indiscretion.

McCain's just a senile product of his time. He probably got back all flustered that no one trembled before him while he was over there. These old guys are nostalgic for the black and white movie Bogarts they began emulating when they still had lead in their pencils. Ignore him. The old fool's a stone's throw away from apoplexy. He probably wept as the wall fell.
 
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