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U.S. - Russia, who wins?

Will the Ukraine lead to further Regional Conflicts?

  • Total voters
    47
iliveonramen said:
I think you see the Ukraine minus the Crimea have no problems joining the EU and separating themselves from Russian influence. I think the Crimea was just problems in every way possible for the Ukraine.
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Putin appears to be using elite commandos—Spetsnaz—to spearhead his stealth move into Crimea and, perhaps, beyond.

Forget the military forces massed on the border and brief incursions into Ukrainian territory and airspace. Russia is invading Ukraine in the shadows. The same special operations forces that appear to be rigging the election in Crimea are quietly escalating tensions inside other parts of eastern Ukraine.

Few politicians in Kiev seemed to have any doubts that the results of the referendum Sunday will bring Crimea under the Kremlin's control. The question discussed in political circles continues to be whether Russia will use open military force against Ukrainian army bases outside the peninsula, in the rest of Ukraine.
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Russian Commandos Invade Ukraine
 
iliveonramen said:
I think you see the Ukraine minus the Crimea have no problems joining the EU and separating themselves from Russian influence. I think the Crimea was just problems in every way possible for the Ukraine.
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That's the way it looks now, let Crimea go under Russian influence, and the rest of Ukraine join the EU.
How might Russia react to that, though, given the natural gas pipelines that were discussed earlier?

Putin is not stupid. Surely, he has considered the possibility that his action in Crimea could have the result of a European Ukraine and loss of control of the pipelines.
 
Who suffers is not Russia or the USA. It's the other people who get stomped on.
 
iliveonramen said:
That's where the US and the European Union need to draw the line.
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I think eventually he'll give in on the Ukraine and accept Crimea as a victory, but he doesn't want to make it easy for future conflicts of interests. It's a game of "push & shove" for the EU, US and NATO, with geographic resources being the main goal, not the indigenous people. Our countries don't really fight for peoples freedoms and rights, as much as they pretend.
 
iliveonramen said:
That's where the US and the European Union need to draw the line.
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From the link:

On the ground in Ukraine, such confusion reigns that the role of Spetsnaz is hard to confirm. But its involvement would come as no surprise.
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First, let's confirm. Let's not have another Gulf of Tonkin incident or go chasing WMD again in Iraq. Then, the question needs to be answered: Draw a line and do what?
 
I suppose it could be argued that Ukraine had it coming for being so stupid as to just give up the third largest nuclear weapons arsenal of the world in exchange for promises from the United States.

Iran isn't going to make the same mistake. Nor is any other country in the future.
 
Dittohead not! said:
From the link:



First, let's confirm. Let's not have another Gulf of Tonkin incident or go chasing WMD again in Iraq. Then, the question needs to be answered: Draw a line and do what?
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Dump weapons - particularly small anti-air and anti-vehicle missiles and sniper rifles - all over Eastern Europe and along Russia's SW and Southern border, plus form a NATO-like alliance with former Eastern block countries. Turn Putin's renew of the cold war into a deep freeze. A hyper-drive arms race. Put the Iron Curtain back up. We did well with it. Russia did not. We are over twice the size of Russia and with Eastern block alliances massively overwhelm Russia economically, population, and militarily.

We have a non-nuclear weapons treaty to keep, Russia had agreed to it, and the whole world needs to see huge repercussions - not rewards - for breaking it.
 
Dittohead not! said:
From the link:



First, let's confirm. Let's not have another Gulf of Tonkin incident or go chasing WMD again in Iraq. Then, the question needs to be answered: Draw a line and do what?
Click to expand...

I agree...there doesn't need to be a lurch toward intervention but it needs to be made clear that military intervention isn't off the table when it comes to the rest of Ukraine. Russia doesn't have a green light to create a new Russian empire.
 
iliveonramen said:
I agree...there doesn't need to be a lurch toward intervention but it needs to be made clear that military intervention isn't off the table when it comes to the rest of Ukraine. Russia doesn't have a green light to create a new Russian empire.
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In my opinion, the issue in not about a green light, but the lack of what would be considered a viable red one.
 
With Ukraine's agreement, we should put at least 10,000 troops in Ukraine. THAT is the red line, the same one we have for North Korea. Then make military/economic contracts with Eastern European countries that are probably none to comfortable now. Replace some of China's production of our products with Eastern European. We will pay for their products and raw materials in exchange for weapons and American money.

The Ukraine is a massive natural resources region critical to Eastern European countries. This includes huge uranium deposits among others. Secure it. If Ukraine falls it will because we covertly agreed to give it to Russia. We already agreed to giving them the Crimean region of Ukraine.

We better secure the countries on Russia's southern border who also agreed to disarmament in exchange for our assurance of protection. That also is a region of massive natural resources Russia will want.
 
ocean515 said:
In my opinion, the issue in not about a green light, but the lack of what would be considered a viable red one.
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Sure...after the West's involvement with Iraq and Afghanistan people are hesitant about going to wary with Russia over provinces filled with ethnic Russians. Putin has taken advantage of that. There's a point though where even overt aggressiveness overrides war fatigue.
 
joko104 said:
Dump weapons - particularly small anti-air and anti-vehicle missiles and sniper rifles - all over Eastern Europe and along Russia's SW and Southern border, plus form a NATO-like alliance with former Eastern block countries. Turn Putin's renew of the cold war into a deep freeze. A hyper-drive arms race. Put the Iron Curtain back up. We did well with it. Russia did not. We are over twice the size of Russia and with Eastern block alliances massively overwhelm Russia economically, population, and militarily.

We have a non-nuclear weapons treaty to keep, Russia had agreed to it, and the whole world needs to see huge repercussions - not rewards - for breaking it.
Click to expand...

Interesting idea, putting the iron curtain back up. Originally, it was the Soviets who erected it, and the Soviets who took it down. The Russians might not do so well with one that is not of their making or under their control.

Plus, this time Eastern Europe would be on the other side of the curtain.
 
iliveonramen said:
Sure...after the West's involvement with Iraq and Afghanistan people are hesitant about going to wary with Russia over provinces filled with ethnic Russians. Putin has taken advantage of that. There's a point though where even overt aggressiveness overrides war fatigue.
Click to expand...

I suppose that is part of it, as well as what appears to be a lack of any viable foreign policy on the part of the Obama Administration

Although I'm not a great fan of Peggy Noonan, I did think her Op-Ed on the Ukraine hit some important notes:

Peggy Noonan: Warnings From the Ukraine Crisis - WSJ.com

The most obvious Ukraine point has to do with American foreign policy in the sixth year of the Obama era.

Not being George W. Bush is not a foreign policy. Not invading countries is not a foreign policy. Wishing to demonstrate your sophistication by announcing you are unencumbered by the false historical narratives of the past is not a foreign policy. Assuming the world will be nice if we're not militarist is not a foreign policy.

What is our foreign policy? Disliking global warming?​
 
Dittohead not! said:
That's the way it looks now, let Crimea go under Russian influence, and the rest of Ukraine join the EU.
How might Russia react to that, though, given the natural gas pipelines that were discussed earlier?

Putin is not stupid. Surely, he has considered the possibility that his action in Crimea could have the result of a European Ukraine and loss of control of the pipelines.
Click to expand...

and most of the natural gas, water, and electricty that goes to the crimea is supplied by ukraine.
 
The fault lies directly with OBAMA and the current administration for lacking spine, guts, and balls. The Russians are walking all over them, and they do nothing about it.

Obama is a spineless wimp. A wet fish. He is a failure as a president and this ordeal sealed that as fact forever.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The fault lies directly with OBAMA and the current administration for lacking spine, guts, and balls. The Russians are walking all over them, and they do nothing about it.

Obama is a spineless wimp. A wet fish. He is a failure as a president and this ordeal sealed that as fact forever.
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what can we do?
 
ocean515 said:
I suppose that is part of it, as well as what appears to be a lack of any viable foreign policy on the part of the Obama Administration

Although I'm not a great fan of Peggy Noonan, I did think her Op-Ed on the Ukraine hit some important notes:

Peggy Noonan: Warnings From the Ukraine Crisis - WSJ.com

The most obvious Ukraine point has to do with American foreign policy in the sixth year of the Obama era.

Not being George W. Bush is not a foreign policy. Not invading countries is not a foreign policy. Wishing to demonstrate your sophistication by announcing you are unencumbered by the false historical narratives of the past is not a foreign policy. Assuming the world will be nice if we're not militarist is not a foreign policy.

What is our foreign policy? Disliking global warming?​
Click to expand...

Ehhh...the whole "not having a foreign policy" is just baloney. The fact is that for decades foreign policy by US Presidents was primarily how they reacted to the Soviet Union. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union foreign policy isn't some unified approach to all things. Also...I much prefer Obama's foreign policy to a would be McCain's presidency.

Based on his opposition to everything Obama we would of taken a "lead" on Libya. We would be supplying Syrian rebels with arms. We would of bombed Iran. I guess now we'd be at war with Russia? Yeah..I'll take "no foreign policy" over that.
 
Peter Grimm said:
The fault lies directly with OBAMA and the current administration for lacking spine, guts, and balls. The Russians are walking all over them, and they do nothing about it.

Obama is a spineless wimp. A wet fish. He is a failure as a president and this ordeal sealed that as fact forever.
Click to expand...

Yeah..nothing is a ballsy as spending tax payer money and others people's lives. Those Hawkish Presidents are real Rambos.
 
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