Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room?

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

lizzie said:

It's not the men I worry about, as much as the women. We could both use a bit of vulcanization, but we wimmenfolk have a little catching up to do. Of course, a case could be made that we just provide balance for one another. :lol:

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Frankly, I kind of think we need you gals to soften us up a bit.

I can speak universally, of course, but a lot of us guys seem to go almost feral if we spend too long without some kind of female influence. :lol:

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

I can speak universally, of course, but a lot of us guys seem to go almost feral if we spend too long without some kind of female influence. :lol:

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So, what explains that tendency in me? :lamo (don't answer that- I already know lol)

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Lursa said:

I have no idea what your point is.

If you arent responsible, then you pay the consequences for that. You cant force people to be responsible. As you say as well.

So what is your point? I'm sure as Hell not going to excuse people that are irresponsible just because 'people are not perfect and make bad decisions." Yeah, we all do. And we all pay the price. That is part of life. For everyone.

This thread is about where the boundaries are on consequences....the consequences of a bad relationship, not necessarily one due to deciding to get pregnant. Relationships change, all it takes is one partner to cheat and boom...it's over (for example).

Recognizing poor behavior as common is NOT excusing it nor should it be.

I really dont give a darn what people do in their personal lives....or their consequences...until it spills over onto me (here's my conservative side coming out) I dont want to pay for it and I dont want to deal with their poorly raised, poorly socially adjusted, disadvantaged, sometimes criminal offspring.

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DO you people purposefully not read my posts and then put words into my mouth that I never said or what? Where did I excuse any poor behavior anywhere? Where the hell is THAT coming from? I said that ONE party is NOT more responsible than the other, regardless of whether some people think one SHOULD be for whatever ridiculous reason.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

polgara said:

:agree: However, since society accepts the fact that since it is always the woman who gives birth, her responsibility should be greater than his, where sexuality is the issue. It might be unfair, but nature has wired us that way. That's why courts decided that since it did take two people to make a baby, the men should also accept responsibility for the cost of raising said child today. Not too long ago, children were sent to workhouses to be raised, and it was a cruel life for an innocent child. That is a common theme in Charles Dickens writings, because he didn't agree with the thinking at that time.

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"Society" does not accept that as a fact because it is NOT a fact. Her responsibility is not assumed to be greater by society, hence the reasons why we have "dead beat dad" laws and child support.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

I don't think anyone would "blame" you for that, necessarily.

They might, however, suggest that other girls should probably learn from your mistakes, so that they do not repeat them.



Some do, and some don't. Unfortunately, people in the "don't" category generally tend to outnumber people in the "do" category.

The sad truth of the matter is that a lot of the reason for this does boil down to intelligence.

I hate to break it to everyone, but most people are STUPID.

This is exactly why absolutist moral codes along the lines of "don't have sex until you're married and ready to start popping out babies" came about in the first place. The vast majority of people simply can't handle being given any more freedom than that.

They run wild with it, and wind up getting themselves into trouble. More often than not, that trouble doesn't stay only with them either, but winds up becoming everybody else's responsibility to take care of as well.

This is pretty much exactly what we're seeing now. People have an "anything goes" mentality, so they're throwing caution to the wind, making bad decisions without thinking about them, and making messes that the rest of society is then expected to clean up.

Call me a cold hearted cynic, but I frankly think it's better for most people if they have a bit less "freedom" with regards to these kinds of issues. There's simply fewer variables for them to screw up.

Edit:

Later. :2wave:

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I never said it didn't have anything to do with intelligence. I said that one gender is NOT going to be more intelligent regarding these decisions, and when it comes to making BAD decisions, both parties are responsible when they have unprotected sex. BOTH are equally responsible for the life created, and that still has nothing to do with being present in the delivery room when the child is born. As long as that woman doesn't try to keep the father from bonding with the child and interacting with that child after it's birth, she is doing nothing wrong by asking him to not be present in the delivery room with her.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

I never said it didn't have anything to do with intelligence. I said that one gender is NOT going to be more intelligent regarding these decisions, and when it comes to making BAD decisions, both parties are responsible when they have unprotected sex.

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I agree.

The only caveat I'd add here is that women are at greater risk for bad outcomes than men, so it is generally a good idea for them to be a bit more careful.

BOTH are equally responsible for the life created

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Absolutely.

As long as that woman doesn't try to keep the father from bonding with the child and interacting with that child after it's birth, she is doing nothing wrong by asking him to not be present in the delivery room with her.

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I have said as much myself.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

DO you people purposefully not read my posts and then put words into my mouth that I never said or what? Where did I excuse any poor behavior anywhere? Where the hell is THAT coming from? I said that ONE party is NOT more responsible than the other, regardless of whether some people think one SHOULD be for whatever ridiculous reason.

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And your point is?

(We mostly disagreed with the rest of what you just wrote. You try to spread the blame as the excuse.)

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

"Society" does not accept that as a fact because it is NOT a fact. Her responsibility is not assumed to be greater by society, hence the reasons why we have "dead beat dad" laws and child support.

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Do you not agree that it is ultimately the woman who decides whether or not sex takes place...other than if she is raped? It seems from the comments on here that it is a generally accepted fact. Men don't usually say no to sex, IOW. If a woman wants to be sexually active, she'd be wise to take her birth control pills to protect against pregnancy, and insist on the male using a condom to help protect against STD. If she doesn't, she's only hurting herself. Now you may not agree with my thinking, and that's okay because I understand your argument that both are responsible, and you are correct, but that's a crapshoot I wouldn't personally be willing to risk the rest of my life on. :shock:

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

I wished the Stork would start delivering babies again so there wouldn't be so much fussin and fightin going on....

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gipper said:

Oh good - you're back. Maybe you can shed more light onto the "men film childbirths for custody high-ground" debacle.

I would LOVE to get your perspective on this.

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Not my drama.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

Getting back on topic here...






While I do sort of agree that Western Medicine can have a tendency to "overthink" childbirth - poking, prodding, cutting, drugging, and generally trying to micromanage women during the delivery process in ways that are very often unnecessary and unjustifiable - noting the importance of a relaxed environment to the birthing process really is not an example of this.

As I pointed out to Oscar, it's simple physiology. It's also the approach to childbirth the human race has taken since time immemorial.

In some cultures, as a matter of fact, women would even give birth entirely alone, with no one in attendance.

I certainly don't deny that it is possible for women to give birth in highly stressful, or even blatantly hostile, environments. However, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea for either the mother or the baby to do so if it can be avoided.

Would you want to have open heart surgery without anaesthesia simply because you theoretically could?

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Interesting take. I think it is more than just Western medicine. In general, I don't think women today could handle what our grandmothers endured. They seem to have become overly emotional and lacking reason. Maybe it is because life has become so easy that they have too much time to dwell on what ails them. Many women today beg for drugs during labor. The most frequently used narcotic medications are:
•Morphine
•Stadol
•Fentanyl
•Nubain
•Demerol
Using Narcotics for Pain Relief During Childbirth | APA on Narcotics
Then they get an epidural that numbs everything from the waste down for the home stretch. Though it is wonderful how the human body provides through certain hormones to counter severe pain, the fact is many choose drugs because they can't take it. Think about it, in today's society whether you have a headache, a cramp, a pulled muscle, the doctors today push pills for pain whether it be physical or mental. The result, people have a lower threshold to pain and mentally seek happiness through a pill.

This sorta ties into it all....did you know the number one reason for divorce is "unreasonable behavior"? Evidently people have lost their ability to deal/reason with just about anything.
Unreasonable behaviour

If it were not for all the other injustices against males when it comes to father's rights, I might look at this differently. But because they exist, I find the idea that a woman can deny her husband the right to witness the birth to be very unfair/unjust. But she definitely holds all the cards. No wonder men have become so reluctant to commit to relationships.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

vesper said:

Since when is it unrealistic to expect women to be responsible for their bodies from pregnancy and disease? Her feckless behavior is costing all of us in increased entitlements. I bet you expect daddy to pay for the next 18 years whether he wanted the kid or not.

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It takes to fecklers to increase disease and pregnancies and entitlements.

Perhaps I missed the flow of the thread, but it seems as if you ignore both fecklers.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

year2late said:

It takes to fecklers to increase disease and pregnancies and entitlements.

Perhaps I missed the flow of the thread, but it seems as if you ignore both fecklers.

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Yes year2late it takes two. The conversation at the time is why women are so willing to go into a sexual relationship and not protect herself as if to count on the other to do so when she is the one that will carry the child, experience labor etc.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

polgara said:

Do you not agree that it is ultimately the woman who decides whether or not sex takes place...other than if she is raped? It seems from the comments on here that it is a generally accepted fact. Men don't usually say no to sex, IOW. If a woman wants to be sexually active, she'd be wise to take her birth control pills to protect against pregnancy, and insist on the male using a condom to help protect against STD. If she doesn't, she's only hurting herself. Now you may not agree with my thinking, and that's okay because I understand your argument that both are responsible, and you are correct, but that's a crapshoot I wouldn't personally be willing to risk the rest of my life on. :shock:

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I always thought sex to be a mutually agreed upon activity.

By the way, men can be raped.

Against his will: The reality of male rape - CNN.com

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

vesper said:

Interesting take. I think it is more than just Western medicine. In general, I don't think women today could handle what our grandmothers endured. They seem to have become overly emotional and lacking reason. Maybe it is because life has become so easy that they have too much time to dwell on what ails them. Many women today beg for drugs during labor. The most frequently used narcotic medications are:
•Morphine
•Stadol
•Fentanyl
•Nubain
•Demerol
Using Narcotics for Pain Relief During Childbirth | APA on Narcotics
Then they get an epidural that numbs everything from the waste down for the home stretch. Though it is wonderful how the human body provides through certain hormones to counter severe pain, the fact is many choose drugs because they can't take it. Think about it, in today's society whether you have a headache, a cramp, a pulled muscle, the doctors today push pills for pain whether it be physical or mental. The result, people have a lower threshold to pain and mentally seek happiness through a pill.

This sorta ties into it all....did you know the number one reason for divorce is "unreasonable behavior"? Evidently people have lost their ability to deal/reason with just about anything.
Unreasonable behaviour

If it were not for all the other injustices against males when it comes to father's rights, I might look at this differently. But because they exist, I find the idea that a woman can deny her husband the right to witness the birth to be very unfair/unjust. But she definitely holds all the cards. No wonder men have become so reluctant to commit to relationships.

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True. Honestly though, I think a lot of this has to do with the way our culture views childbirth in the first place.

As I think I noted in the other thread, it generally looks like something out a horror movie when shown in movies and on television. The sterile and oppressive nature of the "classic" hospital environment doesn't do much of anything to help in this regard either.

Is it any wonder so many women are terrified of it?

I think a lot of women go into labor expecting to have a terrible experience, and it simply becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy from there.

Thankfully, this is gradually changing in a lot of ways as hospitals change their methods to adapt to the emotional needs of laboring women, as well as their medical needs. However, much of the old stigma still remains for the time being.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

vesper said:

Yes year2late it takes two. The conversation at the time is why women are so willing to go into a sexual relationship and not protect herself as if to count on the other to do so when she is the one that will carry the child, experience labor etc.

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The man may not be the one carrying it, but the man is clearly responsible for the child. He is also responsible for the diseases he may get or transmit. So I am totally missing your point. Yes, the woman has 9 months of additional responsibility, but the rest is (should be) mutual.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

True. Honestly though, I think a lot of this has to do with the way our culture views childbirth in the first place.

As I think I noted in the other thread, it generally looks like something out a horror movie when shown in movies and on television. The sterile and oppressive nature of the "classic" hospital environment doesn't do much of anything to help in this regard either.

Is it any wonder so many women are terrified of it?

I think a lot of women go into labor expecting to have a terrible experience, and it simply becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy from there.

Thankfully, this is gradually changing in a lot ways as hospitals change their methods to adapt to the emotional needs of laboring women, as well as their medical needs. However, much of the old stigma still remains for the time being.

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Once upon a time you were admitted, taken to a room, your muff was shaved then you were given a friggen enema. You want to talk about stress? Labor pains and having to run to the friggen toilet ever 10 minutes. You want to talk some more stress? Then they rolled you into a closet size room, left you there to go through the process of dilating every so often coming in to check your blood pressure and no one was allowed back there with you. In pain, scared and alone, that's stress!

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

vesper said:

Once upon a time you were admitted, taken to a room, your muff was shaved then you were given a friggen enema. You want to talk about stress? Labor pains and having to run to the friggen toilet ever 10 minutes. You want to talk some more stress? Then they rolled you into a closet size room, left you there to go through the process of dilating every so often coming in to check your blood pressure and no one was allowed back there with you. In pain, scared and alone, that's stress!

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Yeesh. Screw that.

Frankly, even before that period in medical history, I heard they were putting women under for the delivery, just like they would a surgery. God only knows what kind of surgical procedures they'd unilaterally elect to perform after they basically had a woman at their mercy like that, of course.

It's good that all of this has changed, and continues to change even today.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

Yeesh. Screw that.

Frankly, even before that period in medical history, I heard they were putting women under for the delivery, just like they would a surgery. God only knows what kind of surgical procedures they'd unilaterally elect to perform after they basically had a woman at their mercy like that, of course.

It's good that all of this has changed, and continues to change even today.

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Yes it is. I'm thankful I didn't have to do it alone.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

AGENT J said:

[h=1]http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/judge-says-pregnant-women-can-bar-fathers-delivery/nfCPd/



So do you think the father has a legal right to see his baby born or be in the room?[/h]Yes, he has a legal right and my opinion agrees with that.
Yes, he has a legal right and in my opinion he shouldn't.
No, he has no legal right and my opinion agrees with that.
No, he has no legal right and in my opinion he should.
Other
I Love Chicken Parm


View attachment 67163448


Well he does not nor do i think he should.

Dont get me wrong, i see why and how this could be emotional and i understand how it can be perceived as mean or sad but the bottom line is its the women going through a medical issue. She gets to control the room and her privacy, if she doesnt want somebody in the room, even the father thats her right.

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Yes he has that right, and like all rights it has limitations such as being subordinate to the doctor's and mother's wish. If neither of those two people object, then the father has a right to assert against the wishes of others.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

year2late said:

I always thought sex to be a mutually agreed upon activity.

By the way, men can be raped.

Against his will: The reality of male rape - CNN.com

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Yes, in order for it not to be called a rape, it should be a mutually agreed upon activity. However, until we can all read minds, one of the two will take the initiative, and the other will agree or not. The point here is that the woman be ready to protect against pregnancy, if children are not wanted as a result of sex, and not count on her partner to have taken the precautions necessary. The same precautions are valid in your link on male rape, although this was a rape, and not consensual sex..

Greetings, year2late. :2wave:

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Pretty sick of guys being put on the back burner in terms of their rights when it comes to a pregnancy. I firmly believe this is the only truly fair solution to the male/female equal responsibility thing when it comes to bringing a child into this world.

It keeps everyone honest and gives the man a real voice in a decision that will also affect the rest of his life.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

polgara said:

Yes, in order for it not to be called a rape, it should be a mutually agreed upon activity. However, until we can all read minds, one of the two will take the initiative, and the other will agree or not. The point here is that the woman be ready to protect against pregnancy, if children are not wanted as a result of sex, and not count on her partner to have taken the precautions necessary. The same precautions are valid in your link on male rape, although this was a rape, and not consensual sex..

Greetings, year2late. :2wave:

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The woman AND the man should prevent against diseases and pregnancy. Neither partner should count on the other.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

gb74 said:

Pretty sick of guys being put on the back burner in terms of their rights when it comes to a pregnancy. I firmly believe this is the only truly fair solution to the male/female equal responsibility thing when it comes to bringing a child into this world.

It keeps everyone honest and gives the man a real voice in a decision that will also affect the rest of his life.

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My only difficulty is that if she applies for government resources on behalf of the child, no way no how as a taxpayer do I want tax dollars supporting the child when the father is out there and able.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

gb74 said:

Pretty sick of guys being put on the back burner in terms of their rights when it comes to a pregnancy. I firmly believe this is the only truly fair solution to the male/female equal responsibility thing when it comes to bringing a child into this world.

It keeps everyone honest and gives the man a real voice in a decision that will also affect the rest of his life.

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Being in the delivery room, instead of right outside, means all that?

If he's a real man, will he up and abandon personal relationship with his kid if he cant see it pop out?