Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room?

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it.

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"Buy" whatever you want. The simple fact of the matter is that your position here is counter-factual, and frankly doesn't make any damn sense.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that casual sex or promiscuity were common prior to the sexual revolution.

If it were (considering the fact that contraceptives were not widely available back then), there would've been a problem with out of wedlock births which would have made today's issues pale by way of comparison.

Obviously there wasn't, so the argument holds no merit. As a society, our sexual behavior has legitimately changed.

And if that is the case, it is because society is changing.

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Yes, and not for the better.

That was the whole point. Women are getting knocked up left and right because people these days neither know nor care enough to behave responsibly.

That is a problem, which should really be corrected.

That doesn't change the facts that men are just as responsible for an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy as the woman. They know full well what they are doing and the possible results. They are just as responsible for protecting themselves.

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I never denied it. It simply happens to be the case that men can "cut and run," where a lot of women cannot or will not.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

"Buy" whatever you want. The simple fact of the matter is that your position here is counter-factual, and frankly doesn't make any damn sense.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that casual sex or promiscuity were common prior to the sexual revolution.

If it were (considering the fact that contraceptives were not widely available back then), there would've been a problem with out of wedlock births which would have made today's issues pale by way of comparison.

Obviously there wasn't, so the argument holds no merit. As a society, our sexual behavior has legitimately changed.



Yes, and not for the better.

That was the whole point. Women are getting knocked up left and right because people these days neither know nor care enough to behave responsibly.

That is a problem, which should really be corrected.



I never denied it. It simply happens to be the case that men can "cut and run," where a lot of women cannot or will not.

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This is all nothing but your opinion. Many WOMEN feel society has changed for the better. We don't have to stay married to the same boring or perhaps abusive man. We can make our own choices about our own sexuality and men like you cannot make us the way you want us to be.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

AS you should teach them. Girls are the same way. They are horny and curious just like the boys. Why you hold them to different expectations I don't know. Good decisions are based upon MANY different factors, gender not being one.

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Same expectations, different consequences.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

"Buy" whatever you want. The simple fact of the matter is that your position here is counter-factual, and frankly doesn't make any damn sense.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that casual sex or promiscuity were common prior to the sexual revolution.

If it were (considering the fact that contraceptives were not widely available back then), there would've been a problem with out of wedlock births which would have made today's issues pale by way of comparison.

Obviously there wasn't, so the argument holds no merit. As a society, our sexual behavior has legitimately changed.



Yes, and not for the better.

That was the whole point. Women are getting knocked up left and right because people these days neither know nor care enough to behave responsibly.

That is a problem, which should really be corrected.



I never denied it. It simply happens to be the case that men can "cut and run," where a lot of women cannot or will not.

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Also, many women are sexually active and are responsible about it. This irresponsibility is NOT one-sided by any means.

Edit: Sorry, I prefer to make a new post rather than edit because people miss the edit more often than not because they already read the post. :mrgreen:

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

That is what we are talking about. Sex and pregnancy and who is "responsible." BOTH parties are responsible. Both made choices and decisions. One is not necessarily smarter or more intelligent because of gender.

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One is proven smarter by their actions, not their gender.

That is the point. And both are equally capable of being smart or at least responsible...and if they are not, then they have to accept the consequences. Not blame the other participant for not being just as irresponsible as they were.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

This is all nothing but your opinion.

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Ummm... No, it's a statistical fact.

Hello?

Many WOMEN feel society has changed for the better. We don't have to stay married to the same boring or perhaps abusive man. We can make our own choices about our own sexuality and men like you cannot make us the way you want us to be.

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And you can also get knocked up out of wedlock and have to go through the difficult (and often impoverished) life of a single mother, which is what more than half of new mothers are now doing each year now; putting a serious strain on our economy and social welfare system.

Men aren't the ones suffering for this newfound "freedom." Women are, more often than not.

Hurray for "freedom of choice?"

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

This is all nothing but your opinion. Many WOMEN feel society has changed for the better. We don't have to stay married to the same boring or perhaps abusive man. We can make our own choices about our own sexuality and men like you cannot make us the way you want us to be.

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Of course you can, since you can take him to divorce court and take away his children and paycheck.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

The man is just as responsible for protecting himself. She cannot get pregnant without him and he cannot get her pregnant without her. They share equal responsibility because both are aware of what they are doing and what could be the result. Your argument is very simplistic too because, as I said, there are MANY other variables to consider. You are assuming that everyone is a perfect person.

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Stop for just one minute and think. The woman is the one that carries the burden in a pregnancy. Every women knows men do not get pregnant. So why is she being so feckless in not protecting herself? Why does she risk her health and her future of opportunity over such recklessness? Evidently there are a lot of them out there that do just that. Why now when she has the world of opportunity at her feet to be all she can? Instead she's becoming more and more needy, lacking good judgment, and irresponsible willing to put out for anyone who wants her showing she lacks self worth while not protecting herself. It's a travesty.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

Ummm... No, it's a statistical fact.

Hello?

View attachment 67163625



And you can also get knocked up out of wedlock and have to go through the difficult (and often impoverished) life of a single mother, which is what more than half of new mothers are now doing each year now; putting a serious strain on our economy and social welfare system.

Men aren't the ones suffering for this newfound "freedom." Women are, more often than not.

Hurray for "freedom of choice?"

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Judging by the responses in this thread, I disagree.

Also, this is all really irrelevant. It's happening, and you aren't putting Pandora back in the box. That's why it's important that both men and women take responsibility for their own behaviors.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

I swear that some people think that because THEY have good relationships and good husbands that everyone else must too. That is simply not the case. Some women (and some men) are in less than ideal relationships.

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Then they are both stupid to create a child.

Blunt, but true.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

vesper said:

Stop for just one minute and think. The woman is the one that carries the burden in a pregnancy. Every women knows men do not get pregnant. So why is she being so feckless in not protecting herself? Why does she risk her health and her future of opportunity over such recklessness? Evidently there are a lot of them out there that do just that. Why now when she has the world of opportunity at her feet to be all she can? Instead she's becoming more and more needy, lacking good judgment, and irresponsible willing to put out for anyone who wants her showing she lacks self worth while not protecting herself. It's a travesty.

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Like I said, you are assuming that people are perfect. That is not the case. People make mistakes and bad decisions all the time. Where do you get off expecting this "perfection" from women and not from men? Maybe the men should be offended by how stupid you seem to think they are?

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Lursa said:

Then they are both stupid to create a child.

Blunt, but true.

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No, people are not perfect and make bad decisions. Have you NEVER had a bad relationship, even as a teen? Give me a break. I don't believe it. You've NEVER made a bad decision? Yes, some people's bad decisions have more dire consequences, but they are still bad decisions and not necessarily "stupidity." I was 16 when I got pregnant. Maybe I was stupid, but I was young, naive and inexperienced, and I fell for an older guy.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

Judging by the responses in this thread, I disagree.

Also, this is all really irrelevant. It's happening, and you aren't putting Pandora back in the box. That's why it's important that both men and women take responsibility for their own behaviors.

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Eh. It is what it is.

What it is, incidentally, is a really damn stupid way of doing things, which just so happens to cause far more problems than it solves.

I'm just calling things as I see them. lol

In any case, don't mind me. I just got off of work, and I'm kind of grouchy. :2razz:

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

Eh. It is what it is.

What it is, incidentally, is a really damn stupid way of doing things, which just so happens to cause far more problems than it solves.

I'm just calling things as I see them. lol

In any case, don't mind me. I just got off of work, and I'm kind of grouchy. :2razz:

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That's your opinion. Some people don't have hangups about sex and do practice responsible sex, and NO that doesn't mean they are just sleeping with anyone indiscriminately.

I thought I would make that last statement because you seem to always think it has to be one extreme or the other. :lol:

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gotta go to work for a couple of hours! See ya later! :2wave:

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

Perhaps, but it still doesn't absolve either party of responsibility. Both are equally responsible for the results of unprotected sex, whether it be an STD or a baby.

Edit: Oops, sorry. Greetings to you too Polgara!

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:agree: However, since society accepts the fact that since it is always the woman who gives birth, her responsibility should be greater than his, where sexuality is the issue. It might be unfair, but nature has wired us that way. That's why courts decided that since it did take two people to make a baby, the men should also accept responsibility for the cost of raising said child today. Not too long ago, children were sent to workhouses to be raised, and it was a cruel life for an innocent child. That is a common theme in Charles Dickens writings, because he didn't agree with the thinking at that time.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

No, people are not perfect and make bad decisions. Have you NEVER had a bad relationship, even as a teen? Give me a break. I don't believe it. You've NEVER made a bad decision? Yes, some people's bad decisions have more dire consequences, but they are still bad decisions and not necessarily "stupidity." I was 16 when I got pregnant. Maybe I was stupid, but I was young, naive and inexperienced, and I fell for an older guy.

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I don't think anyone would "blame" you for that, necessarily.

They might, however, suggest that other girls should probably learn from your mistakes, so that they do not repeat them.

ChrisL said:

That's your opinion. Some people don't have hangups about sex and do practice responsible sex, and NO that doesn't mean they are just sleeping with anyone indiscriminately.

I thought I would make that last statement because you seem to always think it has to be one extreme or the other. :lol:

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Some do, and some don't. Unfortunately, people in the "don't" category generally tend to outnumber people in the "do" category.

The sad truth of the matter is that a lot of the reason for this does boil down to intelligence.

I hate to break it to everyone, but most people are STUPID.

This is exactly why absolutist moral codes along the lines of "don't have sex until you're married and ready to start popping out babies" came about in the first place. The vast majority of people simply can't handle being given any more freedom than that.

They run wild with it, and wind up getting themselves into trouble. More often than not, that trouble doesn't stay only with them either, but winds up becoming everybody else's responsibility to take care of as well.

This is pretty much exactly what we're seeing now. People have an "anything goes" mentality, so they're throwing caution to the wind, making bad decisions without thinking about them, and making messes that the rest of society is then expected to clean up.

Call me a cold hearted cynic, but I frankly think it's better for most people if they have a bit less "freedom" with regards to these kinds of issues. There's simply fewer variables for them to screw up.

Edit:

Later. :2wave:

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

No, people are not perfect and make bad decisions. Have you NEVER had a bad relationship, even as a teen? Give me a break. I don't believe it. You've NEVER made a bad decision? Yes, some people's bad decisions have more dire consequences, but they are still bad decisions and not necessarily "stupidity." I was 16 when I got pregnant. Maybe I was stupid, but I was young, naive and inexperienced, and I fell for an older guy.

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I have no idea what your point is.

If you arent responsible, then you pay the consequences for that. You cant force people to be responsible. As you say as well.

So what is your point? I'm sure as Hell not going to excuse people that are irresponsible just because 'people are not perfect and make bad decisions." Yeah, we all do. And we all pay the price. That is part of life. For everyone.

This thread is about where the boundaries are on consequences....the consequences of a bad relationship, not necessarily one due to deciding to get pregnant. Relationships change, all it takes is one partner to cheat and boom...it's over (for example).

Recognizing poor behavior as common is NOT excusing it nor should it be.

I really dont give a darn what people do in their personal lives....or their consequences...until it spills over onto me (here's my conservative side coming out) I dont want to pay for it and I dont want to deal with their poorly raised, poorly socially adjusted, disadvantaged, sometimes criminal offspring.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

I made a mistake in the last sentence and couldnt edit, so I reposted.

Lursa said:

One is proven smarter by their actions, not their gender.

That is the point. And both are equally capable of being smart or at least responsible...and if they are not, then they have to accept the consequences. Not blame the other participant for being just as irresponsible as they were.

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Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Lursa said:

I made a mistake in the last sentence and couldnt edit, so I reposted.

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and if they are not, then they have to accept the consequences. Not blame the other participant for being just as irresponsible as they were.

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That. The bolded. It does not justify doing stupid things, that someone else does them. If I want to protect myself, I would be a fool to lay that responsibility on someone else, or try to justify my negligence by saying "Hey, look. He could have protected me, but he didn't, so don't blame me. I was just doing the same thing he does."

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Getting back on topic here...

OscarB63 said:

I haven't seen any explanation of "physical" pain being caused by his presence.

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OscarB63 said:

and just how is the father simply being in the room going to cause her any additional physical pain?

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The answer lies in the role hormones play in labor.

A woman's latent stress level plays a large role determining what hormones her body will release, and in what quantities and concentrations.

Hormones in labour


As indicated above, oxytocin is the main hormone in childbirth. It both triggers contractions, and serves as a natural pain killing agent.

If a woman is under emotional stress, however, her body will release adrenaline instead. This counter-acts the effects of oxytocin.

While some amount of adrenaline can actually be useful, and will be produced naturally, unnecessary emotional stress will cause a laboring woman to produce more of this "stress hormone" than her system needs. This will have the effect of prolonging labor and delivery and negating many of oxytocin's pain killing benefits.

Having a man that the mother actively dislikes nearby during labor (against her will, no less) is only going to make her angry and upset, which is going to raise her emotional stress levels and trigger the release of adrenaline. This will, therefore, make the delivery harder and more painful.

IMHO, physical pain shouldn't be a consideration.

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Why on Earth not?

Childbirth is hard enough. Why would you want to make it harder on someone if you didn't have to?

OscarB63 said:

call me a sexist/whatever, but I believe that a father's desire to be present at the birth of a child (his child) that he will be legally and ethically obligated to support for at least the next 18 years should be more important than the embarassment and "emotional distress" the mother "might" suffer for a couple of hours.

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What objective benefit is it to anyone for the father to be present in the delivery room if the mother does not want him there? As I just pointed out, all he's probably going to accomplish in doing so is to make labor and delivery harder for her, and therefore more dangerous for the child she is trying to deliver.

If the father really "cares" about his unborn child, his best bet is to respect the mother's wishes during the birthing process.

It really doesn't even matter if she is an insufferable harpy who's only kicking him out to be a bitch either. The simple fact of the matter is that, as it is her body, and she is the one birthing the child, she is going to win that particular round of petty insult.

Frankly, for the sake of the child, if nothing else, that's the way it should be.

Call her a few dirty names, refuse to pay a single cent for the delivery, maybe find a nice wall to punch a few holes in, and move on, I say. :shrug:

lizzie said:

It is a good thing that I don't control the destiny of makind. I would be inclined to scrap it and start over.

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Don't give up hope. The technology required to make widespread genetic engineering workable is right around the corner.

There's hope for a "master race" of perfectly rational and responsible Vulcan men yet! :mrgreen:

vesper said:

You mean like working in the field squat and drop? To read some of these comments you wonder how in the world did the human race ever survive before delivery rooms.

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While I do sort of agree that Western Medicine can have a tendency to "overthink" childbirth - poking, prodding, cutting, drugging, and generally trying to micromanage women during the delivery process in ways that are very often unnecessary and unjustifiable - noting the importance of a relaxed environment to the birthing process really is not an example of this.

As I pointed out to Oscar, it's simple physiology. It's also the approach to childbirth the human race has taken since time immemorial.

In some cultures, as a matter of fact, women would even give birth entirely alone, with no one in attendance.

I certainly don't deny that it is possible for women to give birth in highly stressful, or even blatantly hostile, environments. However, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea for either the mother or the baby to do so if it can be avoided.

Would you want to have open heart surgery without anaesthesia simply because you theoretically could?

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

Getting back on topic here...

The answer lies in the role hormones play in labor.

A woman's latent stress level plays a large role determining what hormones her body will release, and in what quantities and concentrations.

Hormones in labour

​

As indicated above, oxytocin is the main hormone in childbirth. It both triggers contractions, and serves as a natural pain killing agent.

If a woman is under emotional stress, however, her body will release adrenaline instead. This counter-acts the effects of oxytocin.

While some amount of adrenaline can actually be useful, and will be produced naturally, unnecessary emotional stress will cause a laboring woman to produce more of this "stress hormone" than her system needs. This will have the effect of prolonging labor and delivery and negating many of oxytocin's pain killing benefits.

Having a man that the mother actively dislikes nearby during labor (against her will, no less) is only going to make her angry and upset, which is going to raise her emotional stress levels and trigger the release of adrenaline. This will, therefore, make the delivery harder and more painful.



Why on Earth not?

Childbirth is hard enough. Why would you want to make it harder on someone if you didn't have to?



What objective benefit is it to anyone for the father to be present in the delivery room if the mother does not want him there? As I just pointed out, all he's probably going to accomplish in doing so is to make labor and delivery harder for her, and therefore more dangerous for the child she is trying to deliver.

If the father really "cares" about his unborn child, his best bet is to respect the mother's wishes during the birthing process.

It really doesn't even matter if she is an insufferable harpy who's only kicking him out to be a bitch either. The simple fact of the matter is that, as it is her body, and she is the one birthing the child, she is going to win this particular round of petty insult.

Frankly, for the sake of the child, if nothing else, that's the way it should be.

Call her a few dirty names, refuse to pay a single cent for the delivery, maybe find a nice wall to punch a few holes in, and move on, I say. :shrug:



Don't give up hope. The technology required to make widespread genetic engineering workable is right around the corner.

There's hope for a "master race" of perfectly rational and responsible Vulcan men yet! :mrgreen:



While I do sort of agree that Western Medicine can have a tendency to "overthink" childbirth - poking, prodding, cutting, drugging, and generally trying to micromanage women during the delivery process in ways that are very often unnecessary and unjustifiable - noting the importance of a relaxed environment to the birthing process really is not an example of this.

As I pointed out to Oscar, it's simple physiology. It's also the approach to childbirth the human race has taken since time immemorial.

In some cultures, as a matter of fact, women would even give birth entirely alone, with no one in attendance.

I certainly don't deny that it is possible for women to give birth in highly stressful, or negative environments. However, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea for either the mother or the baby.

Would you want to have open heart surgery without anaesthesia simply because you theoretically could?

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Good on you, Mr. Thomas...! Nice post.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

ChrisL said:

Aren't you also pro life?

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No, but I used to be.

You don't leave women with very many options do you? Basically, you believe that if a woman has sex with a man and gets pregnant, she is SOL if she can't afford it? Or do you think society should be forced to pay for that child?

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I leave her with all the options she would naturally have.

Oh, and not only is the mom SOL, but the children as well. Screw them all, right? As long as you can play and not have to pay?

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Well, no one ever forced me to pay anything. For years I paid the mother of my daughter more than what the government was going to take from me, but it was an agreement I made with her when we broke up. These days my daughter lives with me after she made the choice to live with me a few years ago, and because of that, the payments have been decreased to reflect the change of living arrangements.

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Gathomas88 said:

Don't give up hope. The technology required to make widespread genetic engineering workable is right around the corner.

There's hope for a "master race" of perfectly rational and responsible Vulcan men yet! :mrgreen:

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It's not the men I worry about, as much as the women. We could both use a bit of vulcanization, but we wimmenfolk have a little catching up to do. Of course, a case could be made that we just provide balance for one another. :lol:

Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

Removable Mind said:

Good on you, Mr. Thomas...! Nice post.

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Eh. What can I say?

I have an occasional empathetic moment here and there. :lol: