View Poll Results: So do you think the father has a legal right to see his baby born or be in the room?

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  • Yes, he has a legal right and my opinion agrees with that.

    15 22.39%
  • Yes, he has a legal right and in my opinion he shouldnt.

    1 1.49%
  • No, he has no legal right and my opinion agrees with that.

    38 56.72%
  • No, he has no legal right and in my opinion he should.

    3 4.48%
  • Other

    7 10.45%
  • I Love Chicken Parm

    9 13.43%
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Thread: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room?

  1. #591
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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Perhaps, but it still doesn't absolve either party of responsibility. Both are equally responsible for the results of unprotected sex, whether it be an STD or a baby.

    Edit: Oops, sorry. Greetings to you too Polgara!
    : However, since society accepts the fact that since it is always the woman who gives birth, her responsibility should be greater than his, where sexuality is the issue. It might be unfair, but nature has wired us that way. That's why courts decided that since it did take two people to make a baby, the men should also accept responsibility for the cost of raising said child today. Not too long ago, children were sent to workhouses to be raised, and it was a cruel life for an innocent child. That is a common theme in Charles Dickens writings, because he didn't agree with the thinking at that time.

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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    No, people are not perfect and make bad decisions. Have you NEVER had a bad relationship, even as a teen? Give me a break. I don't believe it. You've NEVER made a bad decision? Yes, some people's bad decisions have more dire consequences, but they are still bad decisions and not necessarily "stupidity." I was 16 when I got pregnant. Maybe I was stupid, but I was young, naive and inexperienced, and I fell for an older guy.
    I don't think anyone would "blame" you for that, necessarily.

    They might, however, suggest that other girls should probably learn from your mistakes, so that they do not repeat them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That's your opinion. Some people don't have hangups about sex and do practice responsible sex, and NO that doesn't mean they are just sleeping with anyone indiscriminately.

    I thought I would make that last statement because you seem to always think it has to be one extreme or the other.
    Some do, and some don't. Unfortunately, people in the "don't" category generally tend to outnumber people in the "do" category.

    The sad truth of the matter is that a lot of the reason for this does boil down to intelligence.

    I hate to break it to everyone, but most people are STUPID.

    This is exactly why absolutist moral codes along the lines of "don't have sex until you're married and ready to start popping out babies" came about in the first place. The vast majority of people simply can't handle being given any more freedom than that.

    They run wild with it, and wind up getting themselves into trouble. More often than not, that trouble doesn't stay only with them either, but winds up becoming everybody else's responsibility to take care of as well.

    This is pretty much exactly what we're seeing now. People have an "anything goes" mentality, so they're throwing caution to the wind, making bad decisions without thinking about them, and making messes that the rest of society is then expected to clean up.

    Call me a cold hearted cynic, but I frankly think it's better for most people if they have a bit less "freedom" with regards to these kinds of issues. There's simply fewer variables for them to screw up.

    Edit:

    Later.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-19-14 at 08:12 PM.

  3. #593
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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    No, people are not perfect and make bad decisions. Have you NEVER had a bad relationship, even as a teen? Give me a break. I don't believe it. You've NEVER made a bad decision? Yes, some people's bad decisions have more dire consequences, but they are still bad decisions and not necessarily "stupidity." I was 16 when I got pregnant. Maybe I was stupid, but I was young, naive and inexperienced, and I fell for an older guy.
    I have no idea what your point is.

    If you arent responsible, then you pay the consequences for that. You cant force people to be responsible. As you say as well.

    So what is your point? I'm sure as Hell not going to excuse people that are irresponsible just because 'people are not perfect and make bad decisions." Yeah, we all do. And we all pay the price. That is part of life. For everyone.

    This thread is about where the boundaries are on consequences....the consequences of a bad relationship, not necessarily one due to deciding to get pregnant. Relationships change, all it takes is one partner to cheat and boom...it's over (for example).

    Recognizing poor behavior as common is NOT excusing it nor should it be.

    I really dont give a darn what people do in their personal lives....or their consequences...until it spills over onto me (here's my conservative side coming out) I dont want to pay for it and I dont want to deal with their poorly raised, poorly socially adjusted, disadvantaged, sometimes criminal offspring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    I made a mistake in the last sentence and couldnt edit, so I reposted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    One is proven smarter by their actions, not their gender.

    That is the point. And both are equally capable of being smart or at least responsible...and if they are not, then they have to accept the consequences. Not blame the other participant for being just as irresponsible as they were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I made a mistake in the last sentence and couldnt edit, so I reposted.
    and if they are not, then they have to accept the consequences. Not blame the other participant for being just as irresponsible as they were.
    That. The bolded. It does not justify doing stupid things, that someone else does them. If I want to protect myself, I would be a fool to lay that responsibility on someone else, or try to justify my negligence by saying "Hey, look. He could have protected me, but he didn't, so don't blame me. I was just doing the same thing he does."
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    Getting back on topic here...

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I haven't seen any explanation of "physical" pain being caused by his presence.
    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    and just how is the father simply being in the room going to cause her any additional physical pain?
    The answer lies in the role hormones play in labor.

    A woman's latent stress level plays a large role determining what hormones her body will release, and in what quantities and concentrations.

    Hormones in labour

    It is still not known exactly what happens to start spontaneous labour. Most likely it is a combination of the baby’s stage of maturity and the physical and emotional state of the mother’s health. But the contractions of the uterus are caused by rising levels of the hormone oxytocin, which has multiple functions in childbirth.

    Like all other female mammals, women tend to seek a safe and private place to give birth. The promotion of normal birth includes enabling a woman in labour to focus totally on her own body, feelings and wishes, without distraction.

    A move from home to hospital, or even a move from one room to another, can reduce the oxytocin level and slow or disrupt the progress of labour. If a woman in labour feels anxiety, tension or fear, the ‘stress hormones’ (such as catecholamines, including adrenaline) rise and stop the release of oxytocin.
    It is oxytocin that triggers the ‘fetal ejection reflex’ – the final series of muscular contractions that push the baby out

    As indicated above, oxytocin is the main hormone in childbirth. It both triggers contractions, and serves as a natural pain killing agent.

    If a woman is under emotional stress, however, her body will release adrenaline instead. This counter-acts the effects of oxytocin.

    While some amount of adrenaline can actually be useful, and will be produced naturally, unnecessary emotional stress will cause a laboring woman to produce more of this "stress hormone" than her system needs. This will have the effect of prolonging labor and delivery and negating many of oxytocin's pain killing benefits.

    Having a man that the mother actively dislikes nearby during labor (against her will, no less) is only going to make her angry and upset, which is going to raise her emotional stress levels and trigger the release of adrenaline. This will, therefore, make the delivery harder and more painful.

    IMHO, physical pain shouldn't be a consideration.
    Why on Earth not?

    Childbirth is hard enough. Why would you want to make it harder on someone if you didn't have to?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    call me a sexist/whatever, but I believe that a father's desire to be present at the birth of a child (his child) that he will be legally and ethically obligated to support for at least the next 18 years should be more important than the embarassment and "emotional distress" the mother "might" suffer for a couple of hours.
    What objective benefit is it to anyone for the father to be present in the delivery room if the mother does not want him there? As I just pointed out, all he's probably going to accomplish in doing so is to make labor and delivery harder for her, and therefore more dangerous for the child she is trying to deliver.

    If the father really "cares" about his unborn child, his best bet is to respect the mother's wishes during the birthing process.

    It really doesn't even matter if she is an insufferable harpy who's only kicking him out to be a bitch either. The simple fact of the matter is that, as it is her body, and she is the one birthing the child, she is going to win that particular round of petty insult.

    Frankly, for the sake of the child, if nothing else, that's the way it should be.

    Call her a few dirty names, refuse to pay a single cent for the delivery, maybe find a nice wall to punch a few holes in, and move on, I say.

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    It is a good thing that I don't control the destiny of makind. I would be inclined to scrap it and start over.
    Don't give up hope. The technology required to make widespread genetic engineering workable is right around the corner.

    There's hope for a "master race" of perfectly rational and responsible Vulcan men yet!

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    You mean like working in the field squat and drop? To read some of these comments you wonder how in the world did the human race ever survive before delivery rooms.
    While I do sort of agree that Western Medicine can have a tendency to "overthink" childbirth - poking, prodding, cutting, drugging, and generally trying to micromanage women during the delivery process in ways that are very often unnecessary and unjustifiable - noting the importance of a relaxed environment to the birthing process really is not an example of this.

    As I pointed out to Oscar, it's simple physiology. It's also the approach to childbirth the human race has taken since time immemorial.

    In some cultures, as a matter of fact, women would even give birth entirely alone, with no one in attendance.

    I certainly don't deny that it is possible for women to give birth in highly stressful, or even blatantly hostile, environments. However, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea for either the mother or the baby to do so if it can be avoided.

    Would you want to have open heart surgery without anaesthesia simply because you theoretically could?
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-19-14 at 09:52 PM.

  7. #597
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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Getting back on topic here...

    The answer lies in the role hormones play in labor.

    A woman's latent stress level plays a large role determining what hormones her body will release, and in what quantities and concentrations.

    Hormones in labour



    As indicated above, oxytocin is the main hormone in childbirth. It both triggers contractions, and serves as a natural pain killing agent.

    If a woman is under emotional stress, however, her body will release adrenaline instead. This counter-acts the effects of oxytocin.

    While some amount of adrenaline can actually be useful, and will be produced naturally, unnecessary emotional stress will cause a laboring woman to produce more of this "stress hormone" than her system needs. This will have the effect of prolonging labor and delivery and negating many of oxytocin's pain killing benefits.

    Having a man that the mother actively dislikes nearby during labor (against her will, no less) is only going to make her angry and upset, which is going to raise her emotional stress levels and trigger the release of adrenaline. This will, therefore, make the delivery harder and more painful.



    Why on Earth not?

    Childbirth is hard enough. Why would you want to make it harder on someone if you didn't have to?



    What objective benefit is it to anyone for the father to be present in the delivery room if the mother does not want him there? As I just pointed out, all he's probably going to accomplish in doing so is to make labor and delivery harder for her, and therefore more dangerous for the child she is trying to deliver.

    If the father really "cares" about his unborn child, his best bet is to respect the mother's wishes during the birthing process.

    It really doesn't even matter if she is an insufferable harpy who's only kicking him out to be a bitch either. The simple fact of the matter is that, as it is her body, and she is the one birthing the child, she is going to win this particular round of petty insult.

    Frankly, for the sake of the child, if nothing else, that's the way it should be.

    Call her a few dirty names, refuse to pay a single cent for the delivery, maybe find a nice wall to punch a few holes in, and move on, I say.



    Don't give up hope. The technology required to make widespread genetic engineering workable is right around the corner.

    There's hope for a "master race" of perfectly rational and responsible Vulcan men yet!



    While I do sort of agree that Western Medicine can have a tendency to "overthink" childbirth - poking, prodding, cutting, drugging, and generally trying to micromanage women during the delivery process in ways that are very often unnecessary and unjustifiable - noting the importance of a relaxed environment to the birthing process really is not an example of this.

    As I pointed out to Oscar, it's simple physiology. It's also the approach to childbirth the human race has taken since time immemorial.

    In some cultures, as a matter of fact, women would even give birth entirely alone, with no one in attendance.

    I certainly don't deny that it is possible for women to give birth in highly stressful, or negative environments. However, that doesn't mean that it is a good idea for either the mother or the baby.

    Would you want to have open heart surgery without anaesthesia simply because you theoretically could?
    Good on you, Mr. Thomas...! Nice post.

  8. #598
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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Aren't you also pro life?
    No, but I used to be.

    You don't leave women with very many options do you? Basically, you believe that if a woman has sex with a man and gets pregnant, she is SOL if she can't afford it? Or do you think society should be forced to pay for that child?
    I leave her with all the options she would naturally have.

    Oh, and not only is the mom SOL, but the children as well. Screw them all, right? As long as you can play and not have to pay?
    Well, no one ever forced me to pay anything. For years I paid the mother of my daughter more than what the government was going to take from me, but it was an agreement I made with her when we broke up. These days my daughter lives with me after she made the choice to live with me a few years ago, and because of that, the payments have been decreased to reflect the change of living arrangements.

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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post

    Don't give up hope. The technology required to make widespread genetic engineering workable is right around the corner.

    There's hope for a "master race" of perfectly rational and responsible Vulcan men yet!
    It's not the men I worry about, as much as the women. We could both use a bit of vulcanization, but we wimmenfolk have a little catching up to do. Of course, a case could be made that we just provide balance for one another.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

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    Re: Do you think fathers have a legal right to see thier child born or be in the room

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Good on you, Mr. Thomas...! Nice post.
    Eh. What can I say?

    I have an occasional empathetic moment here and there.

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