Yes, the U.S. should
No, the U.S. shouldn't
Every six years you can see lines of thousands of "anchor babies" who are classified as being U.S. citizens waiting to vote in Mexico's Presidential election in Los Angeles, Santa Anna, San Bernardino, San Fransisco, and any other American city with a large Mexican anchor baby population.
Just think what would happen if America went to war against Mexico and anchor babies were serving in the U.S. Army and were captured on the battlefield by Mexican forces. These Mexican anchor babies serving in the U.S. military under international law could be tried and shot as traitors to Mexico.
1. You claimed that Russia invited international observers to monitor the legitimacy of the election. To support this claim, you cited the Russian invitation of the OSCE and the EU right-wing parties.
2. Wiseone pointed out that a) the Russians themselves did not actually invite anyone, because they had no authority to do so; b) the OSCE could not observe because it is outside of their mandate; and c) the right-wing groups are not qualified to determine the fairness of the referendum.
3. You then confused the OSCE and the right-wingers in your response, perhaps to deliberately obfuscate his legitimate arguments.
The dishonesty in what just happened is pretty self-evident.
In your astute observations, MadLib...did you happen to notice if Wiseman provided any evidence to support his claim that Russia wouldn't allow any "outside observers" in Crimea?
And I pointed out that they did and I was right.2. Wiseone pointed out that a) the Russians themselves did not actually invite anyone,
No, as Wiseman's link pointed out, it was Crimea that didn't have the authority to invite them to observe. Geezus, you don't even know what the issue is and yet here you are pretending to be the grand jury. Perhaps you should've just let well enough alone, Madlib.because they had no authority to do so;
Wiseone first said that Russia wouldn't allow ANY outside observers in Crimea and that is what I responded to. He didn't quantify that they had to be "professional' or "qualified" until well after he put his foot in his mouth. He also just assumed the EU far right nationalist parties weren't qualified to be election observers when in fact political parties often do have their own observers and the ones that Putin asked are recognized by the EU as a legitmate political party with all the qualifications neccessary to observe an election just as any other recognized political party would. But not that it matters because the point is and has been from the start of our discussion is that Russia did in fact invite outside observers, period.b) the OSCE could not observe because it is outside of their mandate; and c) the right-wing groups are not qualified to determine the fairness of the referendum.
Wiseman deliberatly moving the goal posts from Russia wouldn't allow any "outside observer' then to only "qualifed and professinal international observer" and then to saying Russia did invite outside observers but but but....was obfuscating. But in your zeal to find fault with me, apparently you over looked his glaring fallacy.3. You then confused the OSCE and the right-wingers in your response, perhaps to deliberately obfuscate his legitimate arguments.
There's plenty of self evident dishonesty to go around, MadLib and you and Wiseman are no exception.The dishonesty in what just happened is pretty self-evident.
Last edited by Moot; 03-18-14 at 02:50 AM.
Of course she (America) should.
If Obama recognizes an illegal coup to topple a democratically elected government in Kiev...then he should recognize a legally-held (the Crimean government overwhelmingly approved it) referendum.
'What kind of sick and twisted toy factory is this?'
'We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away.'
"Better to be dead and cool, than alive and uncool."
Then why don't you just post that Crimea was never part of the Ukraine and make up anything else for your anti-Ukraine messages? Claim Ukraine was mass slaughtering Crimeans?
The White House claims Russia provided pre-marked ballots for the counting and that the election was a fraud. You claim the results of the election are accurate, despite they numbers also contradict past elections on the issue.
If you claim the 95% vote result is accurate then you are also claiming the Obama White House is lying.
IF they were an undemocratic govt, why would the first thing they'd do is set a date for elections? That's not what undemocratic people do. You're a putin sympathiser.
Calling the referendum legal... is a joke. It was illegal to begin with, but lets say that it wasn't. Even so, you had voter intimidation. You had massive disenfranchizement because numerous tartars didn't get their voting cards so they could go and vote. You had the crimean parliament, who was occupied by Spetnats forces, declare that crimea is independent before the referendum... and to top all of that, the referendum, the ballot itself, had just 2 options:
a) join russia now
b) return crimea to 1992 constitution and status -> i.e. a 2 step process to join Russia.
Pathetic. No option to decide to stay with Ukraine. That's not legal or democratic or anything. Nothing about it is. And you support this?
Unless it can be proved, to an international tribunal, that there was undue and flagrant abuses which affected the vote, we as a nation, should support the vox populi and recognize the Crimean vote as it stands.
Last edited by Paxaeon; 03-18-14 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Grammar