View Poll Results: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote?

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  • Yes, the U.S. should

    21 40.38%
  • No, the U.S. shouldn't

    31 59.62%
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Thread: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?[W:78]

  1. #81
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by APACHERAT View Post
    That's what Mexico has been doing for over forty years now.

    Now the Mexican government is dictating to the American government that we should award these Mexican invaders with amnesty and citizenship while at the same time claiming under the "Law of Nations" that these Mexicans who now occupying America are still Mexican citizens who owe their allegiance to Mexico not America.
    Maybe the Mexican government should consider asking them to return, then, since it's my understanding that part of our plan includes expecting them to serve time in our military as a condition of amnesty. How can we do that if they are Mexican citizens who owe their allegiance to Mexico, not the US?

    Greetings, APACHERAT.

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    "Well, at least now you admit the Obama's White House are liars.

    They have stated that the Russia provided pre-marked ballots for the election, an election held under Russia invasion and martial law, in a country that in the past deported and genocided everyone who opposed the Russian government - for which is was announced Russia won the election by 95% - though that had never been the outcome in prior votes on the same question.

    There is no credibility in those posting 95% voted to join Russia, but at least you admit - as do nearly all Democrats on the forum, that the Obama White House are liars.
    Sorry, but I didn't admit any such thing.

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Maybe the Mexican government should consider asking them to return, then, since it's my understanding that part of our plan includes expecting them to serve time in our military as a condition of amnesty. How can we do that if they are Mexican citizens who owe their allegiance to Mexico, not the US?

    Greetings, APACHERAT.
    Mexico may not observe the sovereignty of the United States but they follow every letter of the law under "The Law of Nations" regarding citizenship. >"Son follows the condition of his father."< That Mexico claims that the sons and daughters of Mexican nationals who are born on American soil and who's parents are in the United States illegally are Mexican citizens who owe their loyalty to Mexico. In America these same people because of the misinterpretation of the XIV Amendment are considered to be U.S. citizens aka "anchor babies."

    Every six years you can see lines of thousands of "anchor babies" who are classified as being U.S. citizens waiting to vote in Mexico's Presidential election in Los Angeles, Santa Anna, San Bernardino, San Fransisco, and any other American city with a large Mexican anchor baby population.

    Just think what would happen if America went to war against Mexico and anchor babies were serving in the U.S. Army and were captured on the battlefield by Mexican forces. These Mexican anchor babies serving in the U.S. military under international law could be tried and shot as traitors to Mexico.

  4. #84
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    I don't see how you could misunderstand the context that I meant since it was exactly the same as yours....I even used your words..."outside observers". So instead of conceding the point, you're equivocating and actually trying to move the goal posts? Really? oi.
    Here's what you did:

    1. You claimed that Russia invited international observers to monitor the legitimacy of the election. To support this claim, you cited the Russian invitation of the OSCE and the EU right-wing parties.
    2. Wiseone pointed out that a) the Russians themselves did not actually invite anyone, because they had no authority to do so; b) the OSCE could not observe because it is outside of their mandate; and c) the right-wing groups are not qualified to determine the fairness of the referendum.
    3. You then confused the OSCE and the right-wingers in your response, perhaps to deliberately obfuscate his legitimate arguments.

    The dishonesty in what just happened is pretty self-evident.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

  5. #85
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Here's what you did:

    1. You claimed that Russia invited international observers to monitor the legitimacy of the election. To support this claim, you cited the Russian invitation of the OSCE and the EU right-wing parties.
    Yes, I was responding to Wiseone's claim that Russia wouldn't allow any "outside observers" whatsoever. Just to be clear, I said, "outside observers" not "international observers."

    In your astute observations, MadLib...did you happen to notice if Wiseman provided any evidence to support his claim that Russia wouldn't allow any "outside observers" in Crimea?

    2. Wiseone pointed out that a) the Russians themselves did not actually invite anyone,
    And I pointed out that they did and I was right.

    because they had no authority to do so;
    No, as Wiseman's link pointed out, it was Crimea that didn't have the authority to invite them to observe. Geezus, you don't even know what the issue is and yet here you are pretending to be the grand jury. Perhaps you should've just let well enough alone, Madlib.

    b) the OSCE could not observe because it is outside of their mandate; and c) the right-wing groups are not qualified to determine the fairness of the referendum.
    Wiseone first said that Russia wouldn't allow ANY outside observers in Crimea and that is what I responded to. He didn't quantify that they had to be "professional' or "qualified" until well after he put his foot in his mouth. He also just assumed the EU far right nationalist parties weren't qualified to be election observers when in fact political parties often do have their own observers and the ones that Putin asked are recognized by the EU as a legitmate political party with all the qualifications neccessary to observe an election just as any other recognized political party would. But not that it matters because the point is and has been from the start of our discussion is that Russia did in fact invite outside observers, period.

    3. You then confused the OSCE and the right-wingers in your response, perhaps to deliberately obfuscate his legitimate arguments.
    Wiseman deliberatly moving the goal posts from Russia wouldn't allow any "outside observer' then to only "qualifed and professinal international observer" and then to saying Russia did invite outside observers but but but....was obfuscating. But in your zeal to find fault with me, apparently you over looked his glaring fallacy.

    The dishonesty in what just happened is pretty self-evident.
    There's plenty of self evident dishonesty to go around, MadLib and you and Wiseman are no exception.
    Last edited by Moot; 03-18-14 at 04:50 AM.

  6. #86
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Of course she (America) should.

    If Obama recognizes an illegal coup to topple a democratically elected government in Kiev...then he should recognize a legally-held (the Crimean government overwhelmingly approved it) referendum.

  7. #87
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Sorry, but I didn't admit any such thing.

    Then why don't you just post that Crimea was never part of the Ukraine and make up anything else for your anti-Ukraine messages? Claim Ukraine was mass slaughtering Crimeans?

    The White House claims Russia provided pre-marked ballots for the counting and that the election was a fraud. You claim the results of the election are accurate, despite they numbers also contradict past elections on the issue.

    If you claim the 95% vote result is accurate then you are also claiming the Obama White House is lying.

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Of course she (America) should.

    If Obama recognizes an illegal coup to topple a democratically elected government in Kiev...then he should recognize a legally-held (the Crimean government overwhelmingly approved it) referendum.
    So wrong. Like, completely.

    IF they were an undemocratic govt, why would the first thing they'd do is set a date for elections? That's not what undemocratic people do. You're a putin sympathiser.

    Calling the referendum legal... is a joke. It was illegal to begin with, but lets say that it wasn't. Even so, you had voter intimidation. You had massive disenfranchizement because numerous tartars didn't get their voting cards so they could go and vote. You had the crimean parliament, who was occupied by Spetnats forces, declare that crimea is independent before the referendum... and to top all of that, the referendum, the ballot itself, had just 2 options:

    a) join russia now
    b) return crimea to 1992 constitution and status -> i.e. a 2 step process to join Russia.

    Pathetic. No option to decide to stay with Ukraine. That's not legal or democratic or anything. Nothing about it is. And you support this?

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Then why don't you just post that Crimea was never part of the Ukraine and make up anything else for your anti-Ukraine messages? Claim Ukraine was mass slaughtering Crimeans?

    The White House claims Russia provided pre-marked ballots for the counting and that the election was a fraud. You claim the results of the election are accurate, despite they numbers also contradict past elections on the issue.

    If you claim the 95% vote result is accurate then you are also claiming the Obama White House is lying.
    Sorry, I didn't claim or say any such thing.

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    `
    `
    Unless it can be proved, to an international tribunal, that there was undue and flagrant abuses which affected the vote, we as a nation, should support the vox populi and recognize the Crimean vote as it stands.
    Last edited by Paxaeon; 03-18-14 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Grammar

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