View Poll Results: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote?

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  • Yes, the U.S. should

    21 40.38%
  • No, the U.S. shouldn't

    31 59.62%
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Thread: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?[W:78]

  1. #61
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I'm not trying to move the goal posts I really thought you were talking about professional elections observes, the kind of people who would unbiasedly report if there was any abuse. I didn't think you were talking about a group of representatives from Europe's far right parties who are in no way qualified or unbiased to be a trustworthy source to report on how the election was conducted.

    I just misunderstood what you were saying, but if you think that these two groups are the same then you're way off base.
    If OSCE is from far-right EU parties and they are bad guys, who else should/could observe there?
    US ?!
    Envidia te mata !!!

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coin View Post
    If OSCE is from far-right EU parties and they are bad guys, who else should/could observe there?
    US ?!
    That's clearly not what I said don't be silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The OSEC is qualified to observe elections and you even posted an article stating they were invited by how did you put it...."Russian puppet of a "Prime Minister"?" So are you now trying to say that the OSEC isn't qualified and they weren't invited to observe the Crimea referendum? You do know that would be a lie, right?
    Ugh. No I didn't say OSCE was not qualified, and it is OSCE not OSEC, I don't know if that's a typo or if you just don't know what you're talking about. And no I didn't say that they weren't invited at all, because obviously I said they were invited but they weren't invited by Russia. And now you say "But I thought Crimea was a Russian Puppet" which is true but its important to note the invite came from the puppet not from the puppet master.

  3. #63
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coin View Post
    If OSCE is from far-right EU parties and they are bad guys, who else should/could observe there?
    US ?!
    I'm pretty sure the OSCE is not a far right EU party. lol They're an international election observer organization that countries hire to observe elections. They were invited to observe the Crimea referendum but refused because they said the election was illegal and Crimea wasn't a country or a member of OSCE. Nevertheless, it would be difficult to argue that they weren't invited.

    Putin also invited some EU far right nationalists to observe the election because allowing them to observe would make it difficult for Putins oppenents to say the election was fixed or that voters were intimidated or forced at gun point or whatever.
    Last edited by Moot; 03-17-14 at 08:55 PM.

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Imo, Crimea's entire beef with Ukraine is it's unstable, corrupt government and the far right pro-nationalists threat of ethnic cleansing if they gained control. So to see the far right nationalist Svoboda's quick rise in parliament and now second in control of the government is probably a cause for great concern for Crimeans. After years of threats of ethnic cleansing and corrupt government officials...the threat is now barking at Crimea's door. If now is not a good time for Crimea to secceed, then when is?

    If the referendum was a choice between two evils, Ukraine corruption or Russia corruption, Crimea picked the one they're most comfortable with....and I can't say I blame them because Ukraine's government is a mess and getting worse, not better. US throwing money at Ukraine isn't going to fix whats wrong with Ukraine and will likely only make it worse.....15 billion....how could it not?

    Ukraine, who couldn't get a loan from US or IMF to save it's life before the coup.....after the coup, the US and IMF are tripping over themselves to loan them billions. So one might say that Putin actually helped Ukraine hit the jackpot and come out a winner. Now Ukraine can use the billions they get from IMF to pay their debt to Russia for the gas ....and in doing so...Putin comes out a winner, too. Most of the loan money is just going to get syphoned off by the corrupt Ukraine politicians, oligarchs and russia. The only ones who will really lose and end up paying is the US. Pretty clever of Putin, eh?

  5. #65
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    The U.S. has already said it will not, but do you think it should?

    The only concern is people might feel intimidated, but I honestly doubt that is the case.

    If the U.S. supports democracy, it should recognize this vote. Granted, the U.S. government doesn't exactly have a positive view of secession I would imagine...

    I support recognizing the vote. If they vote to join Russia, let them. If not, then we have to figure out what is next. I think that would lend us the moral authority to force Russia to back off.
    The United States maintains that secession is illegal, so no, we shouldn't recognize the vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Imo, Crimea's entire beef with Ukraine is it's unstable, corrupt government and the far right pro-nationalists threat of ethnic cleansing if they gained control. So to see the far right nationalist Svoboda's quick rise in parliament and now second in control of the government is probably a cause for great concern for Crimeans. After years of threats of ethnic cleansing and corrupt government officials...the threat is now barking at Crimea's door. If now is not a good time for Crimea to secceed, then when is?

    If the referendum was a choice between two evils, Ukraine corruption or Russia corruption, Crimea picked the one they're most comfortable with....and I can't say I blame them because Ukraine's government is a mess and getting worse, not better. US throwing money at Ukraine isn't going to fix whats wrong with Ukraine and will likely only make it worse.....15 billion....how could it not?

    Ukraine, who couldn't get a loan from US or IMF to save it's life before the coup.....after the coup, the US and IMF are tripping over themselves to loan them billions. So one might say that Putin actually helped Ukraine hit the jackpot and come out a winner. Now Ukraine can use the billions they get from IMF to pay their debt to Russia for the gas ....and in doing so...Putin comes out a winner, too. Most of the loan money is just going to get syphoned off by the corrupt Ukraine politicians, oligarchs and russia. The only ones who will really lose and end up paying is the US. Pretty clever of Putin, eh?
    Indeed, that's the point.
    The Ukrainians are not friends of US, nor of EU.
    They are so corrupted and those money will go directly or not directly to the Russians.
    Envidia te mata !!!

    The blind leading the blind !!!


  7. #67
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Would you support a state of the US, or the most strategic portion of your country, deciding to join Russia?
    If it was Texas or any of the states in the deep south, I would be fine with it.

  8. #68
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    The U.S. has already said it will not, but do you think it should?

    The only concern is people might feel intimidated, but I honestly doubt that is the case.

    If the U.S. supports democracy, it should recognize this vote. Granted, the U.S. government doesn't exactly have a positive view of secession I would imagine...

    I support recognizing the vote. If they vote to join Russia, let them. If not, then we have to figure out what is next. I think that would lend us the moral authority to force Russia to back off.
    The Crimea Vote is not democracy. If you want a historical example, read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer. Adolf Hitler used the same methods to gain territory in the beginning of his quest to dominate Europe.

  9. #69
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The United States maintains that secession is illegal, so no, we shouldn't recognize the vote.
    And there we have have the best reason thus far for the US to not recognise. We can't let people here think that secession might indeed be a possibility.

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Ugh. No I didn't say OSCE was not qualified, and it is OSCE not OSEC, I don't know if that's a typo or if you just don't know what you're talking about.
    Of course you didn't say it....because it would have undermined your claim that Russia didn't invite "professional, qualified" outside observers and you would've had to finally admit your error.

    And no I didn't say that they weren't invited at all,
    Selective memory now, huh? Actually, you clearly said "Russia would never allow outside observers into Crimea and it simply cannot be negotiated." Thats a far cry from what you're saying now.

    because obviously I said they were invited but they weren't invited by Russia.
    Right, you said the puppet PM invited them meaning that the PM is controled by Russia. So what difference does it make, its still Russia inviting the professional outside observers?

    And now you say "But I thought Crimea was a Russian Puppet" which is true but its important to note the invite came from the puppet not from the puppet master.
    Right and everyone knows a puppet is controled by a puppet master. Which brings us back to square one....Russia invited outside observers to Crimea. Do you agree or not?

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