View Poll Results: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote?

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  • Yes, the U.S. should

    21 40.38%
  • No, the U.S. shouldn't

    31 59.62%
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Thread: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?[W:78]

  1. #41
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    I think that if USA recognizes Crimea than Russia should recognize Dardania. In order to keep this trade of recognitions fair then Russia should offer more than just recognizing Dardania.

    I made a thread about this. See details here:

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ependence.html
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Ukraine's most strategically important land and most developed industrial area are hardly a sofa.

    And let's not forget that Ukraine is a democracy.

    Look, I don't advocate military action. I'm just saying let's look at this objectively.
    I was simply disputing your comment about seccesion not being legit, because some other person has a perceived claim on some property. The right to self determination trumps that. If the individuals in Crimea wish to no longer be governed by Ukraine, that is their right, and reasonable people can some to some sort of solution on previously shared resources without just saying No! you are not allowed!

  3. #43
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    The U.S. has already said it will not, but do you think it should?

    The only concern is people might feel intimidated, but I honestly doubt that is the case.

    If the U.S. supports democracy, it should recognize this vote. Granted, the U.S. government doesn't exactly have a positive view of secession I would imagine...

    I support recognizing the vote. If they vote to join Russia, let them. If not, then we have to figure out what is next. I think that would lend us the moral authority to force Russia to back off.
    I do not think it will matters what we recognize or don't recognize.The people of that area view themselves as Russians now.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #44
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Well a few points.

    1) The Russians would never allow outside observers into the Crimea to watch over the election, it simply cannot be negotiated for.
    2) Democracy isn't everything, just because someone is democratically elected doesn't give him free reign to do whatever he wants. The last leader of Ukraine was a man who murdered his people in the streets and stole the wealth of the country for his personal bank accounts and those of his personally connected cadre. He ran the country as a place meant to generate wealth for him and his family, one of the reasons the protests started in the first place, then he fled the country and claims to govern from outside its borders. So democratically elected or not, when you behave like that you aren't legitimate.
    Russia did invite outside observers but they all refused because they said the election was illegal.
    Last edited by Moot; 03-17-14 at 03:57 PM.

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Russia did invite outside observers but they all refused because they said the election wal illegal. Guess which side they were on?
    Actually no Russia did not invite outside observers, Russia's official stance is that there are no Russian forces in Crimea outside of those in their military bases and all of this is being done by the Crimean people themselves totally unrelated to Russia at all. It would destroy that narrative if they were to invite observers into the Crimea as it would mean Russia was in control of the election.

    What actually happened was that Crimea itself, the Parliament and Russian puppet of a "Prime Minister" invited observers from the OSCE, an international body made up of nations from North America, Europe, Russia and the Central Asian sates. OSCE said that it did not recognize Crimean independence and Crimea was not a member of OSCE anyway therefore it had no authority to invite observers into what the OSCE considers another nation's territory, ie Ukraine.

    RPT UPDATE 1-Crimea invites OSCE observers for referendum on joining Russia | Reuters

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    If we recognize the vote to succeed from the Ukraine, it will give the green light to any country to simply peacefully invade another country with it's citizens. Could you imagine if the citizens of some of the souther states of the US voted to succeed to Mexico? And if they did, would we be outraged, or would we simply succeed our land?

    A more realistic analogy would be Scottlands vote for seccession from Britain. The Scots wil be voting on a referendum very similar to the one in Crimea in six months. If..if Scottland secceeds, should the US recognize it as a legal election and Scottland as an independent country?

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    Actually no Russia did not invite outside observers, Russia's official stance is that there are no Russian forces in Crimea outside of those in their military bases and all of this is being done by the Crimean people themselves totally unrelated to Russia at all. It would destroy that narrative if they were to invite observers into the Crimea as it would mean Russia was in control of the election.
    Your link below says that Crimea parliment did invite outside observers. Why would they do that if they didn't want outsiders to see the election? Russia also invited far right nationalists from EU to observe the election as well.

    EU Observer: Russia invites EU far-right to observe Crimea vote


    What actually happened was that Crimea itself, the Parliament and Russian puppet of a "Prime Minister" invited observers from the OSCE, an international body made up of nations from North America, Europe, Russia and the Central Asian sates. OSCE said that it did not recognize Crimean independence and Crimea was not a member of OSCE anyway therefore it had no authority to invite observers into what the OSCE considers another nation's territory, ie Ukraine.

    RPT UPDATE 1-Crimea invites OSCE observers for referendum on joining Russia | Reuters
    I understand what you're saying. But why didn't OSCE accept the puppet "prime minister" invitation, since techically he is or was the prime minister of Ukraine, a recognized member of OSCE?

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Your link below says that Crimea parliment did invite outside observers. Why would they do that if they didn't want outsiders to see the election? Russia also invited far right nationalists from EU to observe the election as well.

    EU Observer: Russia invites EU far-right to observe Crimea vote


    I understand what you're saying. But why didn't OSCE accept the puppet "prime minister" invitation, since techically he is or was the prime minister of Ukraine, a recognized member of OSCE?
    I'm talking about the Prime Minister of Crimea, the guy the Russians installed in Crimea, not the Prime Minister of Ukraine. And I thought when you said observers that you meant folks like the OSCE which is an organization with experience and a mission to observe elections, not a random hodge podge of far right nationalist parties from across Europe.

  9. #49
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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    Are they really?

    The U.S. should have negotiated to get involved with the vote to make sure it met their standards.

    I think it will be legitimate and Crimea will vote to secede because of their demographics and political leanings.

    Interestingly, the U.S. did not support democracy when the Ukrainians deposed of their elected leader.
    The Ukranians did not vote to depose their elected leader, however. So that was not democracy in the sense that it was the choice of the people to do. If President Obama was impeached and removed from office, it would be by a legal Constitutional process, but it would not necessarily be the choice of the people.

    Unless the people were required to vote to secede from Ukraine and join with Russia, their vote should be their business. And if Ukraine decided to force Crimea to stay with Ukraine, well we sort of have that same history.

    I am having a bit of a problem coming up with a rationale of why it is our business if Russia did not take the country by force, however.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Should the U.S. recognize the Crimean vote on secession/annexation tomorrow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I'm talking about the Prime Minister of Crimea, the guy the Russians installed in Crimea, not the Prime Minister of Ukraine. And I thought when you said observers that you meant folks like the OSCE which is an organization with experience and a mission to observe elections, not a random hodge podge of far right nationalist parties from across Europe.
    There's so many puppets it gets a bit confusing. lol Okay, first you say that Russia didn't invite any outside observers and but wait, they did...but...it was their puppet Crimea prime minsiter that invited OSCE, so that doesn't count. Whether or not the outside observers refused is irrelevant because the point is, Russia did invite outside observers, right?
    Last edited by Moot; 03-17-14 at 04:46 PM.

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