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Thread: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect?

  1. #1
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    What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect?

    In the wake of 9/11 I could not understand how and why people with whom we had not ill feelings toward could carry out the most massive act of mass-murder in American history and claim by doing so they were doing Almighty God a favor. I get the fact that crazy people exist and it is true that the people carrying out the evil of 9/11 were just a couple of dozen extremists. This however does not explain people in certain corners were dancing in the streets in celebration as Americans mourned the senseless loss of 3000 innocent people.

    My curiosity and quest for understanding led me to online discussion board very similar to this one but with a few key differences. The Internet has no borders and that discussion board was based overseas. Additionally although the membership spoke English, its participants were made up of people who identified with and supported a world view more common in the Middle-East than what is common in America. So I had my golden opportunity, to finally learn what the heck was these people's problem.

    I honestly was expecting to see posts like infidels must be put to death and western values like letting women drive cars, wear bikinis and normalizing homosexuality were corrupting the world but I was wrong. Instead I got one of the biggest eye-openers of my life, so much so that I doubted the things they were saying. What I learned and independently confirmed was various covert acts of US aggression that were relatively unknown in America were common knowledge in other parts of the world. I thought I was the informed one and they were ignorant to what was going on the world but it turned out the opposite was true. Examples:

    - Going back to 1953 while CLAIMING to make the world safe for democracy we overthrew the first democratically elected President of Iran and installed a brutal puppet dictator. Why? Because the democratically elected president wanted to charge western corporations for their country's only natural resource, oil and they wanted it for free. After 30 years of living under a homicidal tyrant, it was this act that motivated the Iranian hostage crisis and fostered the strong theocratic, anti-western reign of the Ayatollahs when they would have had a pro-western democracy.

    - Saddam Hussein came to power in Iraq because America supported a coup that brought the Bath Party to power. Eventually Hussein rose to become its leader.

    - In the 1950s the first democratically elected government of Congo was overthrown by Belgium but orders were also given to US operatives to do the same; Belgium just got to it first. Its first ever democratically elected Prime Minister was tortured to death and since then there has been continual war in the region.

    - Ironically, on 9/11 but in the year 1973 the US overthrew the government of Chile and installed another brutal dictator. Various reports and investigations claim that between 1,200 and 3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 people were interned and as many as 30,000 were tortured during the rule of our US backed dictator. Why did we overthrow their government and install a murderous dictator? Their government threated to curb the sales of Cola-Cola in Chile and they had to go.

    - Most disturbing was our overthrow of the government of East Timor as killers armed with American supplied weapons massacre of between 100,000 and 200,000 civilians.

    Then add Iran-Contra, Desert Storm that could have been prevented had not our ambassador essentially told Saddam to go ahead and invade Kuwait, helping Saddam brutalize his people by punishing them with no food or medicine that international observers said caused 500,000 innocent children their lives and then our Secretary of State said "was worth it."

    Likely more aware of this history than the average political pundit, in 2009 President Obama spoke a various venues around the world signaling a new era of mutual respect. His clueless American critics cynically labeled it the "Obama Apology Tour."

    In more recent times President Obama has been accused of being "weak" costing America international respect for not backing a dictator in Egypt, not taking sides in in terms of military action in Syria where there are no "good guys" to back on either side and now I guess they want him to nuke Russia over Ukraine. Should we return to the 20th Century model of US foreign relations that ends up leading to America being seen as a hypocritical bully or should we keep out and let people work out their own issues?
    Having opinions all over the map is a good sign of a person capable of autonomous thinking. Felix -2011

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    Re: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect

    I think it's time to tell our government to quit policing the world. Close our borders(north and south) and put Americans first. No more aid and no more protection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    In the wake of 9/11 I could not understand how and why people with whom we had not ill feelings toward could carry out the most massive act of mass-murder in American history and claim by doing so they were doing Almighty God a favor. I get the fact that crazy people exist and it is true that the people carrying out the evil of 9/11 were just a couple of dozen extremists. This however does not explain people in certain corners were dancing in the streets in celebration as Americans mourned the senseless loss of 3000 innocent people.

    My curiosity and quest for understanding led me to online discussion board very similar to this one but with a few key differences. The Internet has no borders and that discussion board was based overseas. Additionally although the membership spoke English, its participants were made up of people who identified with and supported a world view more common in the Middle-East than what is common in America. So I had my golden opportunity, to finally learn what the heck was these people's problem.

    I honestly was expecting to see posts like infidels must be put to death and western values like letting women drive cars, wear bikinis and normalizing homosexuality were corrupting the world but I was wrong. Instead I got one of the biggest eye-openers of my life, so much so that I doubted the things they were saying. What I learned and independently confirmed was various covert acts of US aggression that were relatively unknown in America were common knowledge in other parts of the world. I thought I was the informed one and they were ignorant to what was going on the world but it turned out the opposite was true. Examples:

    - Going back to 1953 while CLAIMING to make the world safe for democracy we overthrew the first democratically elected President of Iran and installed a brutal puppet dictator. Why? Because the democratically elected president wanted to charge western corporations for their country's only natural resource, oil and they wanted it for free. After 30 years of living under a homicidal tyrant, it was this act that motivated the Iranian hostage crisis and fostered the strong theocratic, anti-western reign of the Ayatollahs when they would have had a pro-western democracy.

    - Saddam Hussein came to power in Iraq because America supported a coup that brought the Bath Party to power. Eventually Hussein rose to become its leader.

    - In the 1950s the first democratically elected government of Congo was overthrown by Belgium but orders were also given to US operatives to do the same; Belgium just got to it first. Its first ever democratically elected Prime Minister was tortured to death and since then there has been continual war in the region.

    - Ironically, on 9/11 but in the year 1973 the US overthrew the government of Chile and installed another brutal dictator. Various reports and investigations claim that between 1,200 and 3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 people were interned and as many as 30,000 were tortured during the rule of our US backed dictator. Why did we overthrow their government and install a murderous dictator? Their government threated to curb the sales of Cola-Cola in Chile and they had to go.

    - Most disturbing was our overthrow of the government of East Timor as killers armed with American supplied weapons massacre of between 100,000 and 200,000 civilians.

    Then add Iran-Contra, Desert Storm that could have been prevented had not our ambassador essentially told Saddam to go ahead and invade Kuwait, helping Saddam brutalize his people by punishing them with no food or medicine that international observers said caused 500,000 innocent children their lives and then our Secretary of State said "was worth it."

    Likely more aware of this history than the average political pundit, in 2009 President Obama spoke a various venues around the world signaling a new era of mutual respect. His clueless American critics cynically labeled it the "Obama Apology Tour."

    In more recent times President Obama has been accused of being "weak" costing America international respect for not backing a dictator in Egypt, not taking sides in in terms of military action in Syria where there are no "good guys" to back on either side and now I guess they want him to nuke Russia over Ukraine. Should we return to the 20th Century model of US foreign relations that ends up leading to America being seen as a hypocritical bully or should we keep out and let people work out their own issues?

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    Re: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect

    I'm glad you've had your eyes opened. I absolutely can't stand the fact that so many Americans think "It's because of our christianity and liberty that they hate us." No, it's because we bomb the **** out of them indiscriminately every chance we get and we've been pushing imperialism on them for decades. We always involve ourselves in places we don't belong and often manage to end up supporting the wrong side. We trained and supplied the Taliban in the 80's, for god's sake.

    Combine the violence and death we send out into the world with extreme arrogance and exceptionalism, and you have pretty much the core reason so many people hate us. Don't get me wrong, I'm a proud American, but we need to cool it and stop trying to control the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect

    Short of treaty obligations, the United States should avoid military conflict....period. It is abundantly clear that when we decide to get involved in conflicts in other countries, our people die, their people die, and there will always be individuals and groups that seek revenge and hate us.

    If we are attacked, yes....we need to destroy the attacker completely. But, other than that we need to stay out of it.

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    Re: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    In the wake of 9/11 I could not understand how and why people with whom we had not ill feelings toward could carry out the most massive act of mass-murder in American history and claim by doing so they were doing Almighty God a favor. I get the fact that crazy people exist and it is true that the people carrying out the evil of 9/11 were just a couple of dozen extremists. This however does not explain people in certain corners were dancing in the streets in celebration as Americans mourned the senseless loss of 3000 innocent people.

    My curiosity and quest for understanding led me to online discussion board very similar to this one but with a few key differences. The Internet has no borders and that discussion board was based overseas. Additionally although the membership spoke English, its participants were made up of people who identified with and supported a world view more common in the Middle-East than what is common in America. So I had my golden opportunity, to finally learn what the heck was these people's problem.

    I honestly was expecting to see posts like infidels must be put to death and western values like letting women drive cars, wear bikinis and normalizing homosexuality were corrupting the world but I was wrong. Instead I got one of the biggest eye-openers of my life, so much so that I doubted the things they were saying. What I learned and independently confirmed was various covert acts of US aggression that were relatively unknown in America were common knowledge in other parts of the world. I thought I was the informed one and they were ignorant to what was going on the world but it turned out the opposite was true. Examples:

    - Going back to 1953 while CLAIMING to make the world safe for democracy we overthrew the first democratically elected President of Iran and installed a brutal puppet dictator. Why? Because the democratically elected president wanted to charge western corporations for their country's only natural resource, oil and they wanted it for free. After 30 years of living under a homicidal tyrant, it was this act that motivated the Iranian hostage crisis and fostered the strong theocratic, anti-western reign of the Ayatollahs when they would have had a pro-western democracy.

    - Saddam Hussein came to power in Iraq because America supported a coup that brought the Bath Party to power. Eventually Hussein rose to become its leader.

    - In the 1950s the first democratically elected government of Congo was overthrown by Belgium but orders were also given to US operatives to do the same; Belgium just got to it first. Its first ever democratically elected Prime Minister was tortured to death and since then there has been continual war in the region.

    - Ironically, on 9/11 but in the year 1973 the US overthrew the government of Chile and installed another brutal dictator. Various reports and investigations claim that between 1,200 and 3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 people were interned and as many as 30,000 were tortured during the rule of our US backed dictator. Why did we overthrow their government and install a murderous dictator? Their government threated to curb the sales of Cola-Cola in Chile and they had to go.

    - Most disturbing was our overthrow of the government of East Timor as killers armed with American supplied weapons massacre of between 100,000 and 200,000 civilians.

    Then add Iran-Contra, Desert Storm that could have been prevented had not our ambassador essentially told Saddam to go ahead and invade Kuwait, helping Saddam brutalize his people by punishing them with no food or medicine that international observers said caused 500,000 innocent children their lives and then our Secretary of State said "was worth it."

    Likely more aware of this history than the average political pundit, in 2009 President Obama spoke a various venues around the world signaling a new era of mutual respect. His clueless American critics cynically labeled it the "Obama Apology Tour."

    In more recent times President Obama has been accused of being "weak" costing America international respect for not backing a dictator in Egypt, not taking sides in in terms of military action in Syria where there are no "good guys" to back on either side and now I guess they want him to nuke Russia over Ukraine. Should we return to the 20th Century model of US foreign relations that ends up leading to America being seen as a hypocritical bully or should we keep out and let people work out their own issues?
    So basically you are asking: a) Whether you should continue being a hypocritical bully of the world and spare countries in need to be free from intervention, or b) respect other countries and leave them be in peace under the oppression of other countries not necessarily USA. This is a false dichotomy that does not take into consideration what kind of rule do superpowers offer.

    The USA corporates do want resources from other countries, but they freaking purchase them with dollars. Okay dollars run more on faith than gold today but that is another issue.

    Other superpowers offer brutal medieval rule by use of force and not only gain access to resources for free but also enslave and assimilate its people's culture, identity, and rule with an iron grip. This is a la Russian rule of oppression and China should be the same too.

    Now I may be biased but the former sounds a better kind of rule than the later. A country is free to be itself culturally rather than be assimilated, build itself an economy rather than stay idle while corruption evaporates the goods, trade its resources rather than hand them over for free, build itself an army rather then force its young soldiers to serve in a foreign army, and cooperate with allies rather than be in a bully control from another superpower.

    Lately though I have been thinking that whether the former is better or not depends on the people. Some people in various countries of the world just do not seem to get it that the former is better. Those countries may fall under the later form of rule with greater ease for they understand and abide by such rules in their lives more. In other words I think they are what you call "backward" people.

    Perhaps they may be in peace while in oppression as strange as this may sound. Perhaps in time they would change and embrace the later rule better. In which case we then should be more ready to move in.

    Ukraine though is not among such people. It is in Europe and they are more intelligent than that. Hence Russia should stay the F out of Ukraine. For its own sake!
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect

    Dorder to get a grip on the past I think it would important to look at the international environment existing at that time and try to understand the options available and the consequences and risks to the USA implied. To do this in full for even one example exceeds our present possibilities here. In general terms, however, there seem to me to have been ample reasons to install a strongman, where the us position was endangered, considering the weight and duration of the effort and the enormity of the dangers to the American people.

    This must be separated from the actions after winning the cold war and the challenges now evolving. Each set is totally different and requires correspondingly different responses.

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    Re: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    So basically you are asking: a) Whether you should continue being a hypocritical bully of the world and spare countries in need to be free from intervention, or b) respect other countries and leave them be in peace under the oppression of other countries not necessarily USA. This is a false dichotomy that does not take into consideration what kind of rule do superpowers offer.

    The USA corporates do want resources from other countries, but they freaking purchase them with dollars. Okay dollars run more on faith than gold today but that is another issue.

    Other superpowers offer brutal medieval rule by use of force and not only gain access to resources for free but also enslave and assimilate its people's culture, identity, and rule with an iron grip. This is a la Russian rule of oppression and China should be the same too.

    Now I may be biased but the former sounds a better kind of rule than the later. A country is free to be itself culturally rather than be assimilated, build itself an economy rather than stay idle while corruption evaporates the goods, trade its resources rather than hand them over for free, build itself an army rather then force its young soldiers to serve in a foreign army, and cooperate with allies rather than be in a bully control from another superpower.

    Lately though I have been thinking that whether the former is better or not depends on the people. Some people in various countries of the world just do not seem to get it that the former is better. Those countries may fall under the later form of rule with greater ease for they understand and abide by such rules in their lives more. In other words I think they are what you call "backward" people.

    Perhaps they may be in peace while in oppression as strange as this may sound. Perhaps in time they would change and embrace the later rule better. In which case we then should be more ready to move in.

    Ukraine though is not among such people. It is in Europe and they are more intelligent than that. Hence Russia should stay the F out of Ukraine. For its own sake!
    That is a very interesting comment.

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    Re: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    That is a very interesting comment.
    Thanks.

    Well we should know and have a say about superpower offerings. We have been under one superpower or the other ever since we fall to the Roman Empire before the new era.

    This one is the best thus far
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Thanks.

    Well we should know and have a say about superpower offerings. We have been under one superpower or the other ever since we fall to the Roman Empire before the new era.

    This one is the best thus far
    Yep. Always helps one's judgment to have a comparison.

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    Re: What helps America more in terms of credibility as a nation: agression or respect

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I'm glad you've had your eyes opened. I absolutely can't stand the fact that so many Americans think "It's because of our christianity and liberty that they hate us." No, it's because we bomb the **** out of them indiscriminately every chance we get and we've been pushing imperialism on them for decades. We always involve ourselves in places we don't belong and often manage to end up supporting the wrong side. We trained and supplied the Taliban in the 80's, for god's sake.

    Combine the violence and death we send out into the world with extreme arrogance and exceptionalism, and you have pretty much the core reason so many people hate us. Don't get me wrong, I'm a proud American, but we need to cool it and stop trying to control the world.

    We bombed the heck out of Germany and Japan and they don't hate us. We fought two wars with England and they don't hate us. We tried to invade Canada and they don't hate us. I'm not even sure that Mexico really hates us and we took over 1/3 of their country. I would even wager that Vietnam doesn't hate us and would love to do more business with us they we do.

    I wonder why that is?

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