View Poll Results: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

Voters
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  • NATO

    18 23.68%
  • UN

    7 9.21%
  • EU

    10 13.16%
  • USA

    11 14.47%
  • Russia

    10 13.16%
  • Ukraine

    9 11.84%
  • Nobody

    33 43.42%
  • Santa / Ded Moroz

    3 3.95%
  • Other

    3 3.95%
  • None of my business

    11 14.47%
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Thread: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

  1. #71
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    .... realy? do you not know that a conservative on the international stage is called a "Classical Liberal"? generally the term is associated with the United States in general, while Socialist Democracy is associated with Europe. Just a short Political Science lesson for you...

    A constitutional rule in their country and in almost every democracy around the world, is that someone in a high seat of power can not maintain two political offices. For instance a president of the USA cant also be the Prime Minister of Great Britain.... he has accepted a position as the Prime Minister of the new Autonomous Republic of Crosia last i read, and is now trying to take power from the Ukrainian parliament.

    Besides if you know anything about how parliamentary systems work, parliament is sovereign. they can do what ever the hell they want including amending the constitution. parliament is the embodiment of the peoples will and can change how the government is set up however they dam well please. Constitutions are generally seen as guidelines in a Unitary Parliamentary system when it comes to operation of government, which is i believe what Ukraine has. Constitutions however are seen as very strict when it comes to individual rights. its a tricky balancing act that that type of government messes with, but its what they do.

    LEts say the USA goes into mexico and decides all of the california peninsula is now a new country, the USA controls its leaders, its politics, and everything else about it... it is DE FACTO annexed by the USA, but it is not actually annexed.

    Do you know what De Facto means? it means in reality, rather then in theory. in theory those two georgian regions are now either their own states, or part of georgia still. De Facto however they are part of russia.
    Do you not know that real Conservatism means opposition to modernist ideologies like liberalism? If you're really a liberal at heart, tharen just call yourself that or some equivalent term like libertarian.

    What on Earth is the Autonomous Republic of Crosia?

    Ukraine has a written Constitution, it's not like Britain where there is an informal Constitution.

    I know what de facto means.

  2. #72
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I'm not at all attacking you, so if I come off that way, it's just a matter communication and not intent: but the idea that top policy-makers in most countries are ignorant is such a dumb, populist view. I understand you're not espousing that view and are in fact fighting against, but in my opinion it needs to be hammered home. That a bunch of people on an internet forum could call (or insinuate) policy-makers dumb is just so laughable.

    A group of people mostly with bachelor degrees at best (mostly not in any pertinent major anyway) and mostly with no professional experience in anything like this sitting around critiquing the knowledge and judgment of people with master's and doctorates in international relations/national security/et al, most with at least a decade plus of professional experience...it just boggles the mind. If not here at DP, somewhere out there there's a plumber with a GED bemoaning how "stupid" the Obama or Bush Administrations are/were on the international stage and it makes milk shoot out of my nose.

    /end rant
    I don't take it that way at all. Thank you for emphasizing your thoughts on this matter. You make some very good points.

  3. #73
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    I have to admit.. never read that book though it sounds very interesting. I have read a few books on eastern combat and political/ military strategy, just not that one. However one thing i think you miss about American politics in general, and this is not a criticism of you but in general people from other nations, is that we are very loud, and very very very suspicious of government. But when it comes to a crisis as long as their is strong, open leadership on the issue we tend to come together. that is when we do our best. Unfortunately most americans, my self included feel we would be better served with a Clinton in office then Obama. I don't believe he has the "backbone" or "thick skin" needed to win this kind of cloak and dagger, game of thrones kind of stuff.

    we also like our metaphors.... sorry about that.
    Never, ever be sorry. You can always say the most poignant and powerful of things, a very influential mentor once told me, so long as you do it respectfully.
    Last edited by SayMyName; 03-03-14 at 07:23 PM.

  4. #74
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Re Georgia

    Georgia decideded to attack South Ossetia which has been in effect an autonomus region from the early 1990s. A was was fought by Georgian and South Ossetian forces back then, South Ossetia won. When Georgia decided to attack South Ossetia, Russia stepped in, stopped the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia, and then destroyed a significant amount of Georgian military equipment. Then it pulled back to the boarders of South Ossetia and the other autonomus region (perhaps a 100 meters further out in some cases.


    Had Georgia not decided to attack South Ossetia, the Russian counter attack would never have occurred. Overall Georgia did not lose any territory that it did not lose back in the 1990's
    South Ossetia was granted limited autonomy via the process of Devolution to sooth ethnic tensions between the ossetian population there and the Central Unitary Government. Russia was not involved in this process except to bully georgia politically and militarily and provide backing for Ossetia. It was always part of georgia.... it was never its own country, but rather its own autonomous region. look up the process of devolution and you will find it in countries like spain, the United Kingdoms. It is a legitimate process that Unitary States tend to use to ease issues with regional majorities. i am actually presenting a paper here at UVU on the subject in the next few weeks.

    The new events however have led to Ossetia to fully leave georgian control. this is a break from how things were done in the past, and is caused by Russian intervention. Russia is not allowing much information besides official statements to come from the region and has kept strong control over the "autonomous" areas politics. this is De Facto control.
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  5. #75
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    No one. Ukraine is Ukraine's business. Not NATO's, not the EU's, not Russia's, not the USA's.


  6. #76
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Do you not know that real Conservatism means opposition to modernist ideologies like liberalism? If you're really a liberal at heart, tharen just call yourself that or some equivalent term like libertarian.

    What on Earth is the Autonomous Republic of Crosia?

    Ukraine has a written Constitution, it's not like Britain where there is an informal Constitution.

    I know what de facto means.

    Maybe... just maybe you should look up what i am talking about.... please? you make me very sad.... Conservativism in the UNITED STATES political spectrum means to be oposed to the Liberal AMARICAN liberal movment. But when you are speaking about INTERNATIONAL politics, almost all amarican both liberal and conservative would be considered CLASSICAL LIBERAL!!! George washington, hamilton, Jefferson, Milton Freedmon, John Stewart Mill.... among many... MANY others were among the CLASSICAL LIBERAL authors and proponents of classical liberalism... please look this up before posting about it again? thanks....

    Second, the Autonomous Republic of Crosia was what the local government of Crosia called its self after it... very briefly... declared itself apart from the Ukraine, literally for like... three hours or so, supposedly the former president of the Ukrain wanted the Presidential position until russian advisors stepped in and told him that Crosia could not break away from Ukraine and for him to maintain any kind of legitimacy. So they issued a statement of repeal like half an hour later. it was rather laughable actually. this information could also be the cause of a bad information that the BBC got but no won can confirm anything right now... so i choose to believe that the guy was actually that dumb. hell he was dumb enough to kill his own citizens who protested him in the streets after coming to power in the same manner during the orange revolution.
    Always remember... God Loves you.

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  7. #77
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by SayMyName View Post
    Never, ever be sorry. You can always say the most poignant and powerful of things, a very influential mentor once told me, so long as you do it respectfully.
    Oh.. yea i was just meaning that i know that to a lot of foreigners american's use of metaphors can get rather annoying. and sense i used like... five in that paragraph i felt it appropriate to apologize. I was told this by a friend of mine who is from Germany and another from Saudi arabia, so i assumed everyone felt like that. ha ha
    Always remember... God Loves you.

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  8. #78
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    No one. Ukraine is Ukraine's business. Not NATO's, not the EU's, not Russia's, not the USA's.
    Totally agree, but sense they are being bullied and have asked for help, shouldn't someone help them? or should we just let russia have their way with Ukraine like we did Georgia?
    Always remember... God Loves you.

    Good Luck

  9. #79
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    Totally agree, but sense they are being bullied and have asked for help, shouldn't someone help them? or should we just let russia have their way with Ukraine like we did Georgia?
    We do not know what Russia's next move will be. We will have to see. If Russia takes more direct military action the international community should take action through the UN. I however believe military action will only make things much much more worse. Direct dialogue is needed.


  10. #80
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    Re: Who should send troops in Ukraine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Politicalunrest View Post
    Maybe... just maybe you should look up what i am talking about.... please? you make me very sad.... Conservativism in the UNITED STATES political spectrum means to be oposed to the Liberal AMARICAN liberal movment. But when you are speaking about INTERNATIONAL politics, almost all amarican both liberal and conservative would be considered CLASSICAL LIBERAL!!! George washington, hamilton, Jefferson, Milton Freedmon, John Stewart Mill.... among many... MANY others were among the CLASSICAL LIBERAL authors and proponents of classical liberalism... please look this up before posting about it again? thanks....

    Second, the Autonomous Republic of Crosia was what the local government of Crosia called its self after it... very briefly... declared itself apart from the Ukraine, literally for like... three hours or so, supposedly the former president of the Ukrain wanted the Presidential position until russian advisors stepped in and told him that Crosia could not break away from Ukraine and for him to maintain any kind of legitimacy. So they issued a statement of repeal like half an hour later. it was rather laughable actually. this information could also be the cause of a bad information that the BBC got but no won can confirm anything right now... so i choose to believe that the guy was actually that dumb. hell he was dumb enough to kill his own citizens who protested him in the streets after coming to power in the same manner during the orange revolution.
    For the umpteenth time I know that America has twisted the meaning of the words. And I know that the founders were liberals, they were idiots. As noted by my username, I'm a paleoconservative, not a neoconservative.

    What on Earth are you talking about? The only Crosia I could find any information about is a town in Italy.

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