• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

You worried?

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 49.4%
  • No

    Votes: 36 44.4%
  • I'm buying my marshmallows

    Votes: 5 6.2%

  • Total voters
    81
And the EU has been burned by letting in too many borderline developed countries.

The EU has been burned by poor fiscal and monetary policy. I don't see how the inclusion of, say, Poland has "burned" the EU in any way.
 
I hate to say that I told you so....


From the New York Times:

"SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine — Russian armed forces effectively seized control of Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula on Saturday, as President Vladimir V. Putin had the Russian Parliament grant him broad authority to use military force in Ukraine in response to deepening instability there.

Russian troops stripped of identifying insignia and military vehicles bearing the black license plates of Russia’s Black Sea force swarmed the major thoroughfares of Crimea and occupied major government buildings, closing the main airport and solidifying what had been a covert effort to control the largely pro-Russian region of Ukraine.

In Moscow, Mr. Putin convened the upper house of Parliament to forcefully denounce President Obama and obtain authorization to protect Russian citizens and soldiers stationed in Crimea as well as other parts of Ukraine.

Both actions, military and parliamentary, were a direct rebuff to Mr. Obama, who on Friday pointedly warned Russia to respect Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty."




Remember in the OP I said that Russia were dipping their toes in the water, not going all-in yet because they were waiting to see how Obama would react. They're getting bolder.

We MUST RESPOND. NOW.
 
Even the experts couldn't pin that on Russia - including DARPA's own security consultant. Most experts believe it was NOT directed by the Russian government and there's certainly no proof of such involvement

:lol: what experts are those? May I suggest an actual one? Complete coincidence that the same tactics were then brought to bear against Georgia just as that country was being invaded by Russian troops?

It's a fact that at least one of the people involved was Estonian and it's likely that more Estonians were involved as well as private citizens of Russia. Private hackers all over the world get involved in politics and have for decades.

:) Sure. Private Hackers in Russia. Just like Private Hackers in China. :lol:

So, if we build an F35, and then load it down with bombs, teach a guy how to fly and operate it, have him work for a defense contractor, give him the F35, and tell him we expect to see some crater-holes in, oh, say, this building this building and this building, well then, that's like, totally not us, right? :) It was private. :)

To expect NATO to act on this kind of event is nonsense at it's finest.

Actually we maintain that Cyber Attacks are Acts of War. So, by our own definitions the Russian government engaged in acts of war against a NATO ally and we.... well, we offered lots of moral encouragement at the mid-levels.
 
Last edited:
If Russia can grab Ukraine, why not Kazakhstan? Why not Poland? Why not East Germany?

This is why Obama is in a pickle. He can't show weakness, but, on the other hand, nobody wants a catastrophic war either. This war would make Iraq look like patty cake.

I can't agree more. This is quite the pickle. Putin has drawn a line in the sand. This is such an affront to the international community that I don't see how relations can return to normal, at least not while Putin is in charge. Even Russia's government has requested Putin withdraw its US ambassador, although I'm not sure if he has or not yet.

I don't think this is going to lead to anything kinetic outside of Ukraine, but the distrust that has been simmering underneath the surface is overflowing at this point. Could easily become another Cold War. It's anyone's guess what Obama is going to do about it, but I do know for certain Putin doesn't give a damn because he doesn't respect Obama and he correctly diagnoses the West as nations that are more concerned about political correctness and diversity than growing a pair and standing up to him. Not to mention he controls significant fossil fuel assets that Europe relies on. Scary indeed.

One can't help but think about parallels to the rise of Nazism in Germany. Germany wasn't completely beaten in WW1. Russia wasn't completely beaten in the Cold War. Many Germans felt humiliated after WW1. Many Russians no doubt felt the same after the fall of the Soviet Union. Hitler came to prominence in a campaign to restore Germany's prestige and military. Putin is pursuing a similar course in Russia. Both states became progressively autocratic leading up to offensive military action. Germany viewed areas with ethnic German populations as part of greater Germany. Apparently Russia views areas with ethnic Russians as part of Russia. Germany engaged in military buildup prior to war. Russia has been building up its military in recent years. Apparently the time from defeat to fascist militarism is approximately 20-25 years. 20 years in Germany's case, 25ish years for Russia.

Edit: Oh, and both countries hosted Olympics before getting offensive. History does like to repeat itself.
 
Last edited:
I make it a personal policy to not worry about things I have no control over. Call me a pragmatist.
 
Where were you during Syria? Too late now. Stop being silly.

Do you not see the parallels between Russia's actions in the Ukraine and Nazi Germany's actions in Czechoslovakia?
 
Do you not see the parallels between Russia's actions in the Ukraine and Nazi Germany's actions in Czechoslovakia?

Tell me you are not Godwining modern Russia.
 
Tell me you are not Godwining modern Russia.

That isn't the typical loosely corroborated reference to Nazis or Hitler. There are some real similarities in the situation.
 
That isn't the typical loosely corroborated reference to Nazis or Hitler. There are some real similarities in the situation.

Yes, well, the real differences make the comparison stupid.
 
Yes, well, the real differences make the comparison stupid.


In what way? Because you say so? Ref. post #130.

Just because the comparison doesn't involve Germany or Nazis per se doesn't mean that there aren't valuable lessons to be learned in the comparison.
 
Does anyone else agree with Godwining modern Russia? Please, let's see a show of hands.
 
Ok, just for ****s and giggles, let's consider this. 25 years of development today is very ****ing different than 25 years of development or "post ass kicking" in the early 1900s. So putting those two numbers, as it they bear ANY meaning is stupid. Old people starting a grudge war is ridiculous.
 
Next "point":

Hitler came to prominence in a campaign to restore Germany's prestige and military.

That's a pretty big club including basically every leader.


This one:

It's anyone's guess what Obama is going to do about it, but I do know for certain Putin doesn't give a damn because he doesn't respect Obama and he correctly diagnoses the West as nations that are more concerned about political correctness and diversity than growing a pair and standing up to him.

You're joking, right? PC and diversity is destroying America? Well, that's quite the platform.


Next:

Germany viewed areas with ethnic German populations as part of greater Germany. Apparently Russia views areas with ethnic Russians as part of Russia.

How unusual! Not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism


And:

Germany engaged in military buildup prior to war. Russia has been building up its military in recent years.

Most countries are building up their military, in one form or another.

Finally:
Oh, and both countries hosted Olympics before getting offensive. History does like to repeat itself.

Seriously?



As we can plainly see, there is NOTHING unusual in any of the above comparisons. Each is commonplace to an extent that any given country will satisfy most, if not all, of them.
 
Last edited:
Next "point":



1That's a pretty big club including basically every leader.


This one:



2You're joking, right? PC and diversity is destroying America? Well, that's quite the platform.


Next:



3How unusual! Not.

Irredentism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And:



4Most countries are building up their military, in one form or another.

Finally:


5Seriously?



6As we can plainly see, there is NOTHING unusual in any of the above comparisons. Each is commonplace to an extent that any given country will satisfy most, if not all, of them.

You must feel pretty special for using the term godwining. I suppose no one should draw comparisons because you mock them?

1. Not every leader has gone through the devastating impact of an empire crumbling. They have. Surely this influences their decision making.
2. No. Read a bit more carefully, will you. This is what Putin thinks about us. He does not respect us or Europe. It is true that avoiding war and pursuing social agendas are a principle concern of us and Europe. Putin is reading that as weakness, and he is exploiting it.
3. So you think their actions are justified? Not sure what your beef here is other than to yell for the sake of it.
4. No. Most countries don't have to deal with building up their military after the fall of an empire and subsequently their military. Russia has gone swiftly from a navy in ruin, and an army selling equipment on the black market to a vast overhaul of their military. Mostly paid for with oil revenue. You are mistaken yet again.
5. No, not seriously. A little comic relief after a quite serious post. Thought it would lighten the mood. I guess it just served to give you ammunition. My bad.
6. You haven't proven that there isn't a legitimate comparison here. What you have proven is that you are so desperate to be right, that you're willing to compromise your reason to suit your argument.
 
Yes, it worries me. I'm no WW2 History buff, but anyone who looks at this situation can be reminded of the Hitler's cat joke, "I can has Poland?"

Russia has occupied Crimea. It has ousted the local parliament and installed their own people. Russia has taken Crimea back, and I'm pretty damned sure it intends to keep it. It has violated the Ukrainian autonomy treaty signed between Russia, USA, UK, and Ukraine. It is massing troops on Ukraine's eastern border, next to other Ukrainian provinces that are primarily occupied by ethnic Russian-speakers.

At this point, two things are absolute: Russia has taken back Crimea, and Putin has publicly declared that he wishes to reestablish the Soviet empire.

I believe Russia will militarily occupy the Russia-friendly provinces of eastern Ukraine. There isn't a damned thing, short of WW3, anyone can do about it, and Putin knows that. The big question is, will Russia then move into EU-friendly western Ukraine, occupy that by force, reinstate the ousted Russian puppet President who the people just chased out of office, and claim Ukraine as part of Soviet Russia. If Putin does this, and the rest of the world just wrings its hands, then Ukraine will be merely the first of many previous Russian satellite countries who will, over the next few years, be re-included in the reestablishment of Putin's new USSR.

How can he be stopped short of military confrontation? Short answer: He can't. He is in control, and he knows it. The EU won't do anything. NATO won't do anything. The USA and the UK are not really in a military or economic position to go it alone. And bottom line, even if they tried, the result would probably be a lot of cities reduced to green glass, because nuclear exchange is a real potential.

Anyone who saw how Putin ignored Russian's constitution to keep himself in power permanently knows or should have known that he had a long-term agenda he intended to pursue. Ukraine is the first piece of this agenda, in my opinion. If he takes the entire country, it will not be the last.


Edit: BTW, I haven't read the thread, so if I've reiterated points that have already been made, my apologies.
 
Last edited:
what experts are those?
Among those who have claimed responsibility is the Russian youth group Nashi. Dr Nazario’s view is that, even in the case of Georgia where the peak size of the attacks was substantially larger than the attacks on Estonia the year before, we simply do not have the evidence to attribute any of these attacks to a specific group or a Government agency. On the contrary, analysis of the data suggests non-State actors.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldeucom/68/68.pdf


Even Mr Buy-My-Book doesn't say the Russians did it because he has no proof, nor does anyone else. And Mr Buy-My-Book wasn't employed by the government after 2003.
There was Russia's suspected mass botnet invasion of Estonia in 2007, which "staggered" the nation's largest bank, Hansabank, disrupted commerce and communications across the country and launched "distributed denial of service" (DDOS) attacks.
However, sensationalism has a solid history of selling newspapers and books. You go, dude! Make that money!! Cha-ching!!! :lol:

We'd be laughed out of the UN and off the world stage by even mentioning this incident in more than passing. Thanks God even Bush wasn't stupid enough to try anything on that kind of fuel.


Complete coincidence that the same tactics were then brought to bear against Georgia just as that country was being invaded by Russian troops?
"The same tactics" as in a cyber attack? LOL! You don't even have proof it was the same program that was used in the attack, let alone evidence the Russian government was responsible in any way for Estonia.

Yeah, coincidence and suspicion is a damn good reason to go to war or invoke trade sanctions - but after what Bush pulled in Iraq II I guess I can believe anything from the Conservative camp.


Sure. Private Hackers in Russia. Just like Private Hackers in China.
Should we have invoked trade sanctions with the UK after Anonymous hit us?

So, if we build an F35, and then load it down with bombs, teach a guy how to fly and operate it, have him work for a defense contractor, give him the F35, and tell him we expect to see some crater-holes in, oh, say, this building this building and this building, well then, that's like, totally not us, right? It was private.
One F-35: $100,000,000
Top notch laptop: $3000
Top notch desktop: $1500

Anyone can get their hands on a computer and start hacking almost anything in the world at this point. When the F-35 price tag drops below $10,000 (hell, when it costs less than $10,000 just to fuel the plane) you let me know. :lol:


Actually we maintain that Cyber Attacks are Acts of War. So, by our own definitions the Russian government engaged in acts of war against a NATO ally and we.... well, we offered lots of moral encouragement at the mid-levels.
First off:
If we're going to go to war I'd just as soon have real proof that an act of war has been committed instead of just a hunch or coincidence. We've already managed to start a war for no good reason this century. I'd hate to see us do it again.

Second:
You have no proof at all that Russia did anything except tell Estonia to take a hike when Estonia asked for their help in the incident.

Third:
We should have immediately declared war on the UK when Anonymous hacked our government computers last year. It's obvious the British government was involved because the attacks originated in the UK and we know a street hacker couldn't possibly have gotten past OUR security measures. The Brits were using Anonymous as a front, I tell ya', and they should have been punished!!!
:lamo :lamo :lamo
 
Last edited:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldselect/ldeucom/68/68.pdf


Even Mr Buy-My-Book doesn't say the Russians did it because he has no proof, nor does anyone else. And Mr Buy-My-Book wasn't employed by the government after 2003. However, sensationalism has a solid history of selling newspapers and books. You go, dude! Make that money!! Cha-ching!!! :lol:

We'd be laughed out of the UN and off the world stage by even mentioning this incident in more than passing. Thanks God even Bush wasn't stupid enough to try anything on that kind of fuel.


"The same tactics" as in a cyber attack? LOL! You don't even have proof it was the same program that was used in the attack, let alone evidence the Russian government was responsible in any way for Estonia.

Yeah, coincidence and suspicion is a damn good reason to go to war or invoke trade sanctions. After what Bush pulled in Iraq II I can believe anything from the Conservatives.


Should we have invoked trade sanctions with the UK after Anonymous hit us?

One F-35: $100,000,000
Top notch laptop: $3000
Top notch desktop: $1500

Anyone can get their hands on a computer and start hacking almost anything in the world at this point. When the F-35 price tag drops below $10,000 (hell, when it costs less than $10,000 just to fuel the plane) you let me know. :lol:


First off:
If we're going to go to war I'd just as soon have real proof that of an act of war instead of just a hunch or coincidence. We've already managed to start a war for no good reason this century. I'd hate to see us do it again.

Second:
You have no proof at all that Russia did anything except tell Estonia to take a hike when Estonia asked for their help in the incident.

Third:
We should have immediately declared war on the UK when Anonymous hacked our government computers last year. It's obvious the British government was involved because the attacks originated in the UK and we know a street hacker couldn't possibly have gotten past OUR security measures. The Brits were using Anonymous as a front, I tell ya', and they should have been punished!!!
:lamo :lamo :lamo

These are all good points. The question is, 'what is the proper response' here. Maybe a debilitating computer virus unleashed on Russia?
 
These are all good points. The question is, 'what is the proper response' here. Maybe a debilitating computer virus unleashed on Russia?
Hey, if we can do it and not get caught I'd be all for it. But we tried that once, already, and we did get caught. Good thing it was just Iran and not someone with a real army and nukes.
 
Hey, if we can do it and not get caught I'd be all for it. But we tried that once, already, and we did get caught. Good thing it was just Iran and not someone with a real army and nukes.

I believe I heard on the news that recent hacker attacks against retailers originated from Russia. Any thoughts on whether that was gov't sponsored or simply Russian gangs (of which there are a lot). Not too savy on the cyber news.
 
I believe I heard on the news that recent hacker attacks against retailers originated from Russia. Any thoughts on whether that was gov't sponsored or simply Russian gangs (of which there are a lot). Not too savy on the cyber news.
Few governments initiate cyber attacks. It's bad news if they get caught at it. In fact, AFAIK we're the only government that's been caught doing it - with the exception of Russia and Georgia exchanging cyber blows during their "little war". So, either we're really, really stupid (which I have a hard time believing because we have the best hackers money can buy) or the others aren't doing it, or are doing it on a very, very small scale.

I have little doubt that China sanctions the cyber attacks it's businesses carry out on our businesses but that's just modern corporate espionage, not an act of war.
 
Last edited:
Putin has 150,000 troops on the border, they will be no match for the Ukrainian forces so fighting is futile. This is a NATO operation and the first thing they need to do is to hit Putin where it hurts, in the pocketbook. Embargo all Russian oil and natural gas sales and he will come around real quick. I repeat this is NATO's and Europes baby. it's their balls on the line. They can also fast track Georgia's entry into NATO

I agree but Ukraine can fight too. They are also well armed.
 
Yeah.....


The government of Ukraine is a nigh-on-collapsed, bankrupt entity probably unable to exercise control over all of it's territory without Russian intervention. I put the odds of them successfully repulsing or even managing a serious impediment to Russia's seizure of the Ukraine at..... low.

Okay that you think that Russia's seizure of Ukraine is low. But why do you think Ukraine cannot look after themselves if left alone again?
 
Back
Top Bottom