View Poll Results: You worried?

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  • Yes

    49 49.00%
  • No

    45 45.00%
  • I'm buying my marshmallows

    6 6.00%
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Thread: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

  1. #291
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Who thinks kicking Putin in the wallet is a smart move?

    He's dealing with a fragile economy. He knows that wealth and money, equal, more control and popularity. And he needs a prosperous Russia to leave any kind of a legacy.

    Tightening the purse strings will either, make him heel or buck, but it's in some ways almost as dangerous, as military threats.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  2. #292
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    You may be over-analysing, and that's the enemy of satire.
    You're not coming through...let alone convincing me...
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." --First Amendment to the United States Constitution

  3. #293
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Put US and allied troops in Kiev and Odessa, dispatch NATO monitors and Ukrainian troops to the border cities, send troops to Georgia and offer an immediate security accord with Azerbaijan, begin the process of buttressing Ukraine and turning it into a strong NATO frontier state. We have more arrows in our quiver for a potential confrontation than Russia does, let's start the encirclement.

  4. #294
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    ...let alone convincing me...
    Of what do you think I'm trying to convince you?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  5. #295
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    No, in fact, you didn't. You're now trying to cover up your mistake by faking the evidence and not using the same quote you used earlier. In the earlier quote you included my House of Lords link as well as that one sentence.
    And was clearly referencing your claim that I had misrepresented evidence.

    Yes, you included a book review and I quoted that book review. You didn't.
    That is because I quoted the book itself - and demonstrated that yes, in fact, it does say what I said it did. Which is why you are now attempting a snide little ad hominem because you lack any evidence of your own.

    We have no treaty in reference to cyber terrorism or cyber attacks? I'm pretty sure both are against international law, which we theoretically uphold.
    and we consider them to be Acts of War. However, Estonia and Russia DID have a legally binding treaty to help each other investigate these matters, a treaty which Russia ignored since she was the one directing the attacks.

    I don't agree with your rules of rumor and innuendo and that's all you have.
    On the contrary among the evidence that is available open-source, the vast preponderance of evidence points in one direction. You are claiming that it's not absolute proof, which we do not require at this level.

    That's as good an excuse as any for not producing evidence when you want to make some money, as Mr Buy-My-Book is trying to do.
    When more specific evidence is classified, then people such as Mr Clarke, who was the guy who tried to warn administrations of both parties that Al Qaeda was going to attack us in CONUS, and whom the idea of you attempting to deride is laughable, since as far as I am aware you have contributed precisely nothing to national security, are correct to apply false ambiguity to protect sources and methods.

    The fact is, we have more proof of Anonymous carrying out attacks against our government than we do another country attacking us.
    that is not actually true - the evidence we have is equal to both groups, both of which have attacked our networks.

    I dismissed "testimony" - point by point - of supposition and rumor, which is all you supplied.
    No you didn't, you claimed that the source I brought up didn't say what, in fact, it said, and then you declared a preponderance of evidence to be innuendo, as if you declaring it to be so, made it so.

    Meanwhile, Oh Hey, Lookit That:

    Cyber Snake plagues Ukraine networks

    An aggressive cyber weapon called Snake has infected dozens of Ukrainian computer networks including government systems in one of the most sophisticated attacks of recent years.

    Also known as Ouroboros, after the serpent of Greek mythology that swallowed its own tail, experts say it is comparable in its complexity with Stuxnet, the malware that was found to have disrupted Iran’s uranium enrichment programme in 2010...

    The origins of Ouroboros remain unclear, but its programmers appear to have developed it in a GMT+4 timezone – which encompasses Moscow – according to clues left in the code, parts of which also contain fragments of Russian text. It is believed to be an upgrade of the Agent.BTZ attack that penetrated US military systems in 2008.

    The malware has infected networks run by the Kiev government and systemically important organisations. Lithuanian systems have also been disproportionately hit by it.

    Ouroboros has been in development for nearly a decade and is too sophisticated to have been programmed by an individual or a non-state organisation, according to the applied intelligence unit at BAE Systems, which was the first to identify and analyse the malware....

    “Ukraine is top of the list [of infections] and increasing,” said Dave Garfield, managing director for cyber security at BAE, who added that the instances were almost certainly “the tip of the iceberg”.

    “Whoever made it really is a very professional outfit,” Mr Garfield added. “It has a very high level of sophistication. It is a complex architecture with 50 sub-modules designed to give it extreme flexibility and the ability to evolve. It has neat and novel technical features.”

    “You never get beyond reasonable doubt levels of proof in this area but if you look at it in probabilistic terms – who benefits and who has the resources – then the list of suspects boils down to one,” said Nigel Inkster, until 2006 director of operations and intelligence for MI6 and now director of transnational threats at the think tank IISS...

    But hey, according to you a street hacker with a $1500 laptop could have pulled that off, so, I'm sure he's probably just being full of innuendo....
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  6. #296
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    And was clearly referencing your claim that I had misrepresented evidence.

    That is because I quoted the book itself - and demonstrated that yes, in fact, it does say what I said it did. Which is why you are now attempting a snide little ad hominem because you lack any evidence of your own.
    Evidence against a quote from a book to which I have no access???

    But to address your point, even what YOU quoted from YOUR book doesn't say "The Russian government DID do this." Your best shot amounts to a suggestion, not proof:

    Others, more familiar with modern Russia, suggested that what was at work was far more than a passive Russian police turning a blind eye to the hooliganism of overly nationalistic youth.
    Suggested - with no proof to back up that sentiment. Again, that's apparently your best shot and it falls far, far short of the mark.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    and we consider them to be Acts of War. However, Estonia and Russia DID have a legally binding treaty to help each other investigate these matters, a treaty which Russia ignored since she was the one directing the attacks.
    You have no evidence of the Russian government's involvement in the attacks. All you have is rumors and suspicions.

    ((Edit: Given your inaccessible source at the end of this post and the assumption that the Russian government is responsible, one must wonder why they didn't use the earlier version for the attack on Estonia. Your own quote shows this "bug" going back 10 years, well before the Estonia attack. Why not use what they already had in the toolkit? Your case continues to fall apart.))


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary among the evidence that is available open-source, the vast preponderance of evidence points in one direction. You are claiming that it's not absolute proof, which we do not require at this level.
    Sorry, what little bit of actual evidence we have may point to Russia but it doesn't point to the Russian government.You're so far short of absolute proof that to even mention it is almost dishonest. You're not even close to swaying a civil court jury (9/12) in your favor, let alone a criminal one. Even your own source doesn't say the Russian government was involved.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No you didn't, you claimed that the source I brought up didn't say what, in fact, it said, and then you declared a preponderance of evidence to be innuendo, as if you declaring it to be so, made it so.
    No, I claimed the sources you gave - a book review and, later, a House of Lords document you quoted from my post - did not say that. Your dishonesty on this point is blatant.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    When more specific evidence is classified, then people such as Mr Clarke, who was the guy who tried to warn administrations of both parties that Al Qaeda was going to attack us in CONUS who resigned from government service four years before the Estonia incident, and whom the idea of you attempting to deride is laughable, since as far as I am aware you have contributed precisely nothing to national security, are correct to apply false ambiguity to protect sources and methods.
    (emphasis is my correct change)

    You have no clue whether it's "false ambiguity" or if it's just plain, old fashioned "we don't know so we can't say for sure". You're adding your own opinion to someone's else's opinion, which is also based on opinion. Opinion thrice removed doesn't even qualify as conjecture, it's more like building your case from a foundation of straw.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that is not actually true - the evidence we have is equal to both groups, both of which have attacked our networks.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    But hey, according to you a street hacker with a $1500 laptop could have pulled that off, so, I'm sure he's probably just being full of innuendo....
    From your own admission here, a few "street hackers" managed to attack the US government - unless you honestly believe Anonymous has a $$$1,000,000,000 budget and it's members all have Cray's sitting in their basements.

    If they can get to the US government with all of our resources, what makes you think the same kind of "street hacker" can't get to the Estonian government? But you keep contradicting yourself, it's OK ... really.



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Meanwhile, Oh Hey, Lookit That:
    Hey, lookit that - another "source" I can't access.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-09-14 at 05:40 AM.
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  7. #297
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Where da nukes at?

    I'd been led to believe they travel a little quicker than this.

  8. #298
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Two months later and still no sign.

    Colour me shocked.

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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Aaaand another two months.

    Ya know, I'm beginning to get the feeling some of you guys are a little....reactionary?

    Maybe they'll get here in september, eh? See ya then.

  10. #300
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    We dead yet? Just checking.

    Another
    9 months down the line and we're still not glowing in the dark. Anyone feeling foolish yet?

    I see dumb people.

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