View Poll Results: You worried?

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  • Yes

    49 49.00%
  • No

    45 45.00%
  • I'm buying my marshmallows

    6 6.00%
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Thread: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

  1. #21
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    If Russia can grab Ukraine, why not Kazakhstan? Why not Poland? Why not East Germany?

    This is why Obama is in a pickle. He can't show weakness, but, on the other hand, nobody wants a catastrophic war either. This war would make Iraq look like patty cake.
    Yes, I'm worried about the situation for the reasons you state, although I cannot imagine WW3 will break out right now -- one side, most likely the West, will probably give in towards the other, lose face and reputation (which is a pretty big loss) in exchange for calming the situation for now.

    However, if that happens, nobody can still ignore the fact that we're dealing with "Cold War 2.0". And what worries me most about that is that Germany or the EU countries in general are not at all prepared for such a confrontation and rely on US protection now more than ever. And my guess is that Americans these days are much less willing to die for Europeans than they used to be 30 years ago, or 60 years ago for that matter.

    Germany has disarmed post-1990 and turned the few remaining parts of the army into an intervention army suited for places like Kosovo or Afghanistan, but is not at all prepared to do basic self-defense. Now Germany has some blame for that, but not exclusively, since this arrangement -- America protecting us, in exchange for massive influence on our policies -- has been mutually acceptable for a while. However, if the situation gets tough, I'd rather see my country being able to defend itself.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  2. #22
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Russia is nowhere near despotic enough to go intervening in a country on its border. End of story.

  3. #23
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The US and UK helped put the recently ousted Ukraine president in office. I've read that Putin was supportive of the Ukraine president and government. The news says the protestors in Ukraine are national fascists aka neo nazi's. The US and Russia still have a common enemy in these hooligan hitler wannabes, no?

    Unrest and uprising in Ukraine could directly effect and spill over into a Russia. So why wouldn't Russia be pro-active instead of re-active and make it's presence known?
    Actually, the West massively supported the opposition movement aka "Orange Revolution" in 2004 and now again the now successful protests, because these protesters mainly located in west Ukraine are pro-Western.

    The east Ukrainians, on the other hand, mostly speak and feel Russian and are pro-Russian. The now ousted former president Yanukovich belonged to that camp. He was about giving up treaties with the West/EU and embrace Russia, which is what caused the opposition uprising this time.

    The uprising in Ukraine is hardly neo-Nazi or fascist, just one of the three opposition parties involved in the protests is, and the smallest at that. The two other major opposition (now governing) parties are somewhat moderate, but pro-Western.

    So the West has been and will probably continue supporting these pro-Western parties, even though an extreme right radical party is among them, while Russia will continue to support the pro-Russian toppled party, in classic proxy-war fashion.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  4. #24
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Yes, I'm worried about the situation for the reasons you state, although I cannot imagine WW3 will break out right now -- one side, most likely the West, will probably give in towards the other, lose face and reputation (which is a pretty big loss) in exchange for calming the situation for now.

    However, if that happens, nobody can still ignore the fact that we're dealing with "Cold War 2.0". And what worries me most about that is that Germany or the EU countries in general are not at all prepared for such a confrontation and rely on US protection now more than ever. And my guess is that Americans these days are much less willing to die for Europeans than they used to be 30 years ago, or 60 years ago for that matter.

    Germany has disarmed post-1990 and turned the few remaining parts of the army into an intervention army suited for places like Kosovo or Afghanistan, but is not at all prepared to do basic self-defense. Now Germany has some blame for that, but not exclusively, since this arrangement -- America protecting us, in exchange for massive influence on our policies -- has been mutually acceptable for a while. However, if the situation gets tough, I'd rather see my country being able to defend itself.
    Mine too. We should make a joint eastern front.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Russia is nowhere near despotic enough to go intervening in a country on its border. End of story.
    Hence it should stay the F out!
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    How many in Ukraine support Russia though? I would hate to see civil war in Ukraine, that would be terrible.
    A minority!
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

  7. #27
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Hence it should stay the F out!
    I meant... Russia is nowhere near despotic enough for the US to go intervening in a country on its border.

    I'm not siding with Russia, I'm accepting priorities based on global context. It would be monumentally stupid for the US to go pissing off a mostly western (and powerful) nation regarding instability on its border.

    Do I want to intervene in Syria? Yes. Do I want to nation build Iran? Yes. Do I want to interfere with Russia regarding instability on its border? No, I'm not stupid.

  8. #28
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Yes, I'm worried about the situation for the reasons you state, although I cannot imagine WW3 will break out right now -- one side, most likely the West, will probably give in towards the other, lose face and reputation (which is a pretty big loss) in exchange for calming the situation for now.

    However, if that happens, nobody can still ignore the fact that we're dealing with "Cold War 2.0". And what worries me most about that is that Germany or the EU countries in general are not at all prepared for such a confrontation and rely on US protection now more than ever. And my guess is that Americans these days are much less willing to die for Europeans than they used to be 30 years ago, or 60 years ago for that matter.

    Germany has disarmed post-1990 and turned the few remaining parts of the army into an intervention army suited for places like Kosovo or Afghanistan, but is not at all prepared to do basic self-defense. Now Germany has some blame for that, but not exclusively, since this arrangement -- America protecting us, in exchange for massive influence on our policies -- has been mutually acceptable for a while. However, if the situation gets tough, I'd rather see my country being able to defend itself.
    I feel like there's an easy solution to all of this. Just split Ukraine into two countries. Hold votes, and any territory/state/province that wants to go with Russia can and the rest can go with the west.

    Splitting a country is always better than war. I don't think we should force anyone to live together that doesn't want to.
    "If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself." ~ Martin Heidegger

  9. #29
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Yes, I'm worried about the situation for the reasons you state, although I cannot imagine WW3 will break out right now -- one side, most likely the West, will probably give in towards the other, lose face and reputation (which is a pretty big loss) in exchange for calming the situation for now.

    However, if that happens, nobody can still ignore the fact that we're dealing with "Cold War 2.0". And what worries me most about that is that Germany or the EU countries in general are not at all prepared for such a confrontation and rely on US protection now more than ever. And my guess is that Americans these days are much less willing to die for Europeans than they used to be 30 years ago, or 60 years ago for that matter.

    Germany has disarmed post-1990 and turned the few remaining parts of the army into an intervention army suited for places like Kosovo or Afghanistan, but is not at all prepared to do basic self-defense. Now Germany has some blame for that, but not exclusively, since this arrangement -- America protecting us, in exchange for massive influence on our policies -- has been mutually acceptable for a while. However, if the situation gets tough, I'd rather see my country being able to defend itself.
    What's up German Guy, it's been a while.

    I hope the West don't simply give in, that would have pretty bad consequences in shifting the balance back toward Russia. We worked so hard (Europe and America that is) to achieve the balance the way it is today. And nobody has benefitted more from that work than the Germans - you have reunited East and West, you've formed a European Union, your economy has blossomed and your country has really entered a new era.

    It was only 25 years ago, though, that the Soviets had East Germany under their sphere of influence. 25 years is not that long, and many of those Russians are still alive. You have to assume that there are people in Russia who look west with one eye, hoping for a chance to regain what they used to have.

    If we give in and let Russia just take Ukraine or do what they want, then that cloud of Russian influence drifts closer and closer to Germany's back door. If Russia wins in Ukraine, they will only get bolder.

    I have no doubt that the United States will support Germany and every other NATO country, I just hope Obama and his team have the skill to diffuse the situation before it gets to that point without tilting the balance of power to the Russian side. I think it is possible, but, like I said earlier, this is the most important moment of Obama's presidency.

  10. #30
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I feel like there's an easy solution to all of this. Just split Ukraine into two countries. Hold votes, and any territory/state/province that wants to go with Russia can and the rest can go with the west.

    Splitting a country is always better than war. I don't think we should force anyone to live together that doesn't want to.
    That can be sad for the country that's split though, see East/West Germany for example. Or North/South Korea.

    Then again, it's happened successfully in the past, like Czechoslovakia.

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