View Poll Results: You worried?

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  • Yes

    49 49.00%
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    45 45.00%
  • I'm buying my marshmallows

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Thread: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

  1. #241
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    The Ukraine is not going to give up it's seaports over this. Odessa is as much (or more) of a commercial port than Sevastopol.

    The Crimea was barely included in the Ukraine as it was. It has a special designation compared to other regions and is relatively independent of the Ukrainian government.
    I'm guessing Crimea will declare independence and Russia will protect it. Ukraine won't attack, Russia won't invade the rest of Ukraine.

    Sanctions on Russia will occur, Ukraine will move closer to the west for protection, and Russia will lose another ally.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

  2. #242
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Dude I pulled the book off my shelf and am sitting with it physically here in front of me.

    Sure. From Cyber War: The Next Threat To National Security, and What To Do About It, by Richard A Clarke and Robert K Knake. Copyright 2010, HarperCollins publishers, New York.

    The "many close observers" line is also a standard for people who have access to classified information to be able to write competently to a subject without directly stating intelligence assessments or collections' methods. Books like this have to get run through an SSO office before they can be released not least in order to insure that that level of obfuscation has taken place.
    Dude, you neither said it was from his book nor did you link the book. What you did do was quote my link to the House Of Lords report
    http://www.publications.parliament.u...ucom/68/68.pdf,
    HOUSE OF LORDS, European Union Committee, 5th Report of Session 2009–10: Protecting Europe Against Large-scale Cyber-attacks)
    which clearly shows there is no proof.


    Page 15:

    "The Russian Government indignantly denied that it was engaged in cyber war against Estonia. It also refused Estonia's formal diplomatic request for assistance in tracing the attackers, although a standing bilateral agreement required Moscow to cooperate.
    I already said that much. Russia refused to help Estonia. So what? We wouldn't do any different even if it was China or Russia whining at us, let alone someone like Castro.

    Castro: Someone in the US hacked my banks using a DDOS attack! I want you guys to do something about it!
    NSA: OK, Fidel, we'll get right on that!



    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So, yeah. Pretty much it does say that .
    No it doesn't.
    But even if the "patriotic Russian" theory were to be believed, it left unanswered the question of why the Russian government would not move to stop such vigilantism
    Uh, maybe because they agreed with the hackers? Maybe because Russian/Estonian relations were pretty much in the dirt by that time? Again, we wouldn't do any different even if it was China or Russia whining at us, let alone someone like Castro.


    Others, more familiar with modern Russia, suggested that what was at work was far more than a passive Russian police turning a blind eye to the hooliganism of overly nationalistic youth.
    Yeah --- They "suggested" but failed to provide proof of any kind.



    Like I said, what you've got is a bunch of rumors and innuendos - and I might add, from someone who has good monetary reason to continue promoting said rumors and innuendos. You have nothing substantial at all so quit wasting my time with this nonsense.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-03-14 at 10:30 AM. Reason: sp
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  3. #243
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    we might have no choice. if it gets bad we will get involved



    When you say 'we',do you have a mouse in your pocket?

    I see zero chance of the USA going to war with Russia over the Ukraine kerfuffle.

  4. #244
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I can only assume that you did not read them? In China and Israel, for example, the units involved are named (we outed Israel, too), and in China's case an IT Security Firm named Mandiant (hilariously) even posted a video of a live-capture of a Chinese Military Hacker attempting to invade their networks to YouTube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7nZt7WCobY
    I saw no evidence of Chinese military involvement.

    Is someone in Shanghai doing some most likely illegal things in the US? Apparently.
    Is it a member of the Chinese government? Unknown.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Furthermore, think about your own argument for a minute - you are simultaneously claiming that states do not engage in cyber attacks all that much outside of the US/Iran Russia/Georgia example, and then you are claiming that the attribution of such attacks is beyond our capability.

    But if it was impossible or even extremely difficult to attribute cyber attacks, then that would give nation-states a massive incentive to use them.
    It doesn't matter how good the motivation, what matters is evidence and there isn't any except those I've already noted. I like to see solid evidence to guide our actions as a nation, not rumor and innuendo as we used to invade Iraq the second time.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    fixed that to more accurately mean what I think you are getting at. If not, let me know.
    Anyone can take that line of argument (that the government knows but won't release the info) with anything at all. Are you going to profess belief in the aliens at Area 51, now? The people who believe that sad story use the exact same line, "The government knows about (the aliens) but it won't tell anyone!"

    Could the government have proof it's being hacked by a foreign government? Almost anything is possible, even unicorns. Does the government have proof that it's not sharing? All we can argue here is the evidence we have available. Rumor, innuendo, and Conspiracy Theories of a government cover up or secrecy just don't cut it.


    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    So what - you think Thomas Gabriel did that with a $1500 laptop?
    Anonymous has pulled off some pretty big events using nothing more than a few laptops and/or desktops. That's how several of them eventually ended up in US and British jails. Anonymous and it's actions are a fact, not Hollywood, and you should get used to it. It doesn't take a multi-million dollar operation to make a lot of trouble and cost people a lot of money. All it takes is a few smart hackers, some relatively cheap computers, and an Internet connection. Anonymous has proved that more than once.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-03-14 at 11:19 AM.
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  5. #245
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Dude, you neither said it was from his book
    Post 189:

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor
    Even Mr Buy-My-Book doesn't say the Russians did it
    Actually he does. I would direct you to pages 15 and 16, where he states that either A) the state did it or B) hackers that are trained and supported by the state in organized crime did it, and points out that C) it doesn't really matter which one it is, since both are instruments of Russian Foreign Policy. To translate that into American terms, the hackers were either employees of the NSA, or employees of Lockheed Martin, working on contract for the NSA, and either way, it was the US.
    So yeah, in fact, I did.

    nor did you link the book.
    Unless it's loaded onto google books or some academic site that allows unrestricted open access, I'm not sure how to link an entire book. What I linked to you was the Washington Post Book Review in post 129.

    I already said that much. Russia refused to help Estonia. So what? We wouldn't do any different even if it was China or Russia whining at us
    Te difference of course, being that we do not have a legally binding treaty obligating us to do so.

    No it doesn't.
    ...yes, it does. I don't know how to make that more blatant than block-quoting it for you, unless you want me to break up my discussion in chunks and block-quote the book below each claim?

    Uh, maybe because they agreed with the hackers?
    Of course they did. The hackers were an instrument of foreign policy.

    They "suggested" but failed to provide proof of any kind.
    Did you read that part about necessary ambiguity when discussing Intelligence Community Assessments?

    Like I said, what you've got is a bunch of rumors and innuendos - and I might add, from someone who has good monetary reason to continue promoting said rumors
    Richard Clarke spent years trying to convince Administrations of both parties that Al Qaeda was coming, and found himself beating up against a similar wall with the Bush Administration on Cyber. It's not a surprise to me he went public - in his shoes, I would be tempted to do so as well.

    But you deny that he even said what I am pointing out to you that he did. You deny that states use cyber attacks and then go to great length to defend a position that would make it almost irresistibly tempting for them to do so. You skip over or dismiss the testimony of those who know the subject far better than you, and to what purpose? Because you don't want to admit that NATO is basically useless for much of 21st Century Warfare?
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  6. #246
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Elaborate please. It seems the contrary at this point. Well it seemed the contrary prior to Kerry and Rasmussen doing their job to be exact.
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  7. #247
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Someone managed to capture a drone from our satellite, a drone whose existence, flight path, mission, and capabilities were, until that time, secret. That entity would have required impressive cyber resources - like the kind that a state can bring to bear - to defeat US military networks and hack CIA encryption. That entity then chose to fly the drone to Iran, so that it's capabilities could be studied by Iranians, so that Iran could protect itself from observation by that kind of collection in the future, and so that any reverse engineering that Iran was capable of doing, it could do.
    More non-evidence?


    Don't bother linking that Iranian engineer's interview or anything else out of Iran. Iran has shown the world time and again that it blatantly lies through it's teeth, especially when it comes to the US.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #248
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    I'm guessing Crimea will declare independence and Russia will protect it. Ukraine won't attack, Russia won't invade the rest of Ukraine.

    Sanctions on Russia will occur, Ukraine will move closer to the west for protection, and Russia will lose another ally.
    That's a very likely scenario. I'm still not sure how Sevastopol will play out in all this. The Ukraine has most of it's navy stationed there - alongside the Russian fleet. I'm sure that makes the Russians very nervous, having their fleet isolated like that, and it may be the whole reason for this incident.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #249
    Quantum sufficit

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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Today, Russia's markets are way down. Capital is fleeing.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

  10. #250
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    Re: Does the situation in Ukraine worry you?

    Any time there's a war, or potential for a war, it worries me. Wars can often be contained, but their very nature is chaotic. They can overspill their intended borders very quickly. World War I started out as a squabble between a few Eastern European countries...

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